As Pratchett said "“Ankh-Morpork had dallied with many forms of government and had ended up with that form of democracy known as One Man, One Vote. The Patrician was the Man; he had the Vote.” They want federation, one federation, a federation, their federation. The man is Jack and he has the vote.
@taco, bird/cat :verified420: @The Gibson this is literally the goal. To half ass it but to get people to think they're better and get over the centralization hurdle.
if you actually go look at the design of atproto, it was never designed to do anything like what we call federation. It was _always_ intended to be one centralized service, and their idea of "federation" is decentralized identities and data management.
Which, yeah, there's a space for that and it would be quite nice to be able to move your entire identity, including all your data, from instance to instance. But ultimately, that idea works because their idea of an "instance" is essentially a singular isolated entity.
One of their core conceits when designing their idea of how the network should work was intentionally not resilience. It's designed for centralized moderation at huge scale.
What is admittedly interesting is that, if understand correctly, ultimately one PDS could connect to a bunch of different relays, each with different views of its network - since, essentially, the relay *is the entire network.*
The principal issue with this design is that the relay is the entire network.
Which is quite literally not federation, at least in any sense I've been made to understand it. Sure, you could take your ball and go home, by removing your PDS entirely, but you can't cooperate with "some" of the network.
Entirely unsurprising. At best, their “federation” model was never truly federated given that bsky relies on layers that an individual (or even small faction) could never afford to run themselves. So much of the promise of bsky is pure conjecture or fantasy, yet #bluesky superfans will preach about how much better bluesky is than other networks based on where they THINK it will go, not where it is now or more importantly, where it will *actually* go.
@Shreyan Jain It doesn't have to be, but to my knowledge, BlueSky doesn't support anything that even remotely resembles federation. It's all centrally controlled.
@me Don't think that's accurate - for example @mackuba is working on his own AppView, which people will be able to replace api.bsky.app with, for example. Nothing in the network mandates being controlled by Bluesky
@Shreyan Jain I'll admit to not having heard of this. If I post something using this third-party AppView, who controls the physical disk on which my post resides?
I haven't paid a ton of attention to BlueSky because I'm simply not interested in yet another walled garden.
The "source of truth" for your posts is always your PDS, which some people are already hosting themselves, and some like @shreyan are writing new implementations of; that would be analogous to a post's source in AP being its origin instance. AppViews, relays and other kinds of servers like feed generators all keep their copies. The difference is that instead of reading everything through your instance's copies like in AP, you read everything through the AppView's copies.
@shreyan @me Not working just yet, just thinking about it 😀 But this thought keeps coming back, so I probably won't be able to resist forever. (It would probably be much simpler to just install one from Bluesky's existing code, but where's the fun in that? Also, Javascript ughhh)
The 500 Hats of LambdaCalculus
in reply to The Gibson • • •c0debabe, mapache
Unknown parent • • •ghostdancer
in reply to The Gibson • • •They want federation, one federation, a federation, their federation. The man is Jack and he has the vote.
Jonathan Lamothe
in reply to The Gibson • •like this
The Gibson and Peter Butler like this.
taco, bird/cat :verified420:
in reply to The Gibson • • •silverwizard
in reply to taco, bird/cat :verified420: • • •Jonathan Lamothe likes this.
Cyber Yuki
in reply to The Gibson • • •mav :happy_blob:
in reply to The Gibson • • •if you actually go look at the design of atproto, it was never designed to do anything like what we call federation. It was _always_ intended to be one centralized service, and their idea of "federation" is decentralized identities and data management.
Which, yeah, there's a space for that and it would be quite nice to be able to move your entire identity, including all your data, from instance to instance. But ultimately, that idea works because their idea of an "instance" is essentially a singular isolated entity.
mav :happy_blob:
in reply to mav :happy_blob: • • •It's kind of fascinating, actually.
https://bsky.social/about/blog/5-5-2023-federation-architecture
One of their core conceits when designing their idea of how the network should work was intentionally not resilience. It's designed for centralized moderation at huge scale.
What is admittedly interesting is that, if understand correctly, ultimately one PDS could connect to a bunch of different relays, each with different views of its network - since, essentially, the relay *is the entire network.*
The principal issue with this design is that the relay is the entire network.
Which is quite literally not federation, at least in any sense I've been made to understand it. Sure, you could take your ball and go home, by removing your PDS entirely, but you can't cooperate with "some" of the network.
It's a pretty big disappointment really.
Federation Architecture Overview - Bluesky
Blueskyshellsharks
in reply to The Gibson • • •Jonathan Lamothe likes this.
mav :happy_blob:
Unknown parent • • •Shreyan Jain
in reply to The Gibson • • •Jonathan Lamothe
in reply to Shreyan Jain • •The Gibson likes this.
Shreyan Jain
in reply to Jonathan Lamothe • • •Jonathan Lamothe
in reply to Shreyan Jain • •@Shreyan Jain I'll admit to not having heard of this. If I post something using this third-party AppView, who controls the physical disk on which my post resides?
I haven't paid a ton of attention to BlueSky because I'm simply not interested in yet another walled garden.
Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Jonathan Lamothe • • •Shreyan Jain
in reply to Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 • • •Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Shreyan Jain • • •redsolver
in reply to Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 • • •Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to redsolver • • •