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Remember kids:

IRC is free.
IRC is a open standard.
You can run your own IRC server.
IRC doesn't collect data on you and sell it.
You can still moderate your channels via invite, voice, and ban modes.
You can run a server on a 486.
IRC doesn't try to up sell you on "nitro".
IRC doesn't need to make money to make some VC happy.

in reply to Jonathan Lamothe

@me I haven't got back on the XMPP train yet, but its on my list. Was a big user until Google killed off much of it. Solid technology though!
in reply to Miah Johnson

@Miah Johnson The two advantages it has over IRC are federation and (optional) E2EE. The latter it should be pointed out, doesn't work for multi-user chat.
in reply to Jonathan Lamothe

@Jonathan Lamothe @Miah Johnson there is *some* support for multi-user e2ee, but it's true that it requires a bit of effort (iirc everybody in the chat should have everybody else in their roster, and trust their omemo keys, otherwise things break and people lose part of the conversation)
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla''

@valhalla @me this problem is mostly due to policy, different clients have different default settings for trusting new devices. We do have an active 100+ members end to end encrypted chat for Prav. Occasionally we get encryption problems, but it mostly work when devices don't change too much in the room. The policy problem is not unfixable, we just have to focus and do it. The big problem I see is people starting with bad unmaintained clients and servers and complaining things break.
in reply to Miah Johnson

@Miah Johnson @Jonathan Lamothe between the time when Google tried to kill it and today XMPP has had quite a revival and has grown a lot of features that wasn't common at that time but are considered quite important today (such as working well on mobile connections, and when used from multiple devices, and of course e2ee)

and there are bridges to use it to access IRC servers, and I've heard that they are quite useful to access IRC from mobile devices 😁 (I still have irssi in a screen)

in reply to Miah Johnson

@me Miserable technology, with basically no moderation tooling whatsoever even compared to IRC.
in reply to Jonathan Lamothe

@me
XMPP has much more lag, so IRC is way better In fast group chats. For chats that are more like Whatsapp groups, XMPP wins because of sending backlog and similar more account oriented features.
in reply to allo

@allo I've never found the lag to be a problem, but it's possible you have a different use case than I do.
@allo
in reply to Jonathan Lamothe

@me Part of the problem is probably gone, as it was probably over ten years ago, but back then IRC had 1-2 seconds lag and XMPP could have 10 seconds and more, and then some late replies didn't make sense anymore.
Systems like Matrix cannot compete with low latency chats anyway, but I think they fit a different use case than IRC.
in reply to allo

@me And it also were channels with 100+ users in them and not just 10-20, which worked well over XMPP.
in reply to allo

@allo Ah, fair enough. Honestly, I don't know enough people on XMPP for the chats to get that busy in the first place. As for Matrix, I've been meaning to have a look at it, just never got around to it.
@allo
in reply to Jonathan Lamothe

@me I see Matrix more as a replacement for team chats like Slack and other slow chats with persistance like Discord. But I do not like Matrix as I see some aspects where it provides less privacy and control over the own data than I would like to have.
in reply to Jonathan Lamothe

@me XMPP is really not used much for group chats. I guess many projects that could use XMPP are already on IRC and see no reason to change that.
in reply to Jonathan Lamothe

@Jonathan Lamothe @allo I often use an XMPP chat with people in the same room (as one does 😁 ) and my feeling¹ is that with pc clients the lag tends to be in the 2-3 seconds range, *but* we also are on the same server, and that may help.

mobile clients have a bit more lag

Other than that the other group chats I'm in only have a handful (<10) of people, and that probably helps in making lag not an issue.

¹ I haven't actually measured it

in reply to Jonathan Lamothe

@me xmpp is nice as well, but the only people I can talk to on there are those I also can talk to on my irc server
in reply to R.I.Pienaar

@ripienaar counter: libera.chat.

Just because efnet turned into a shitshow, and freenode sold out doesn't mean you can't run your own server. You _DON'T_ have to chat on a "big" network. You can run your own for friends and family.

"The stuff irc opers get up to" sure. Everything can be abused. Just throw your PC into the ocean already.

in reply to Miah Johnson

Point is, you have valid points about IRC and I agree a lot - but the big missing “*" is if you are able to pick a good and well run and well intentioned server or network.

Much the same concerns as here etc.

in reply to R.I.Pienaar

And largely also why many of the federated services fail or dont succeed in the wider sense - its impossible to know who to trust. Even a enormous comunity of some of the most paranoid crazies on the planet (us) didnt see the Freenode thing coming
in reply to R.I.Pienaar

And indeed, I can also run my own Mastadon server - but even I dont do that I pay someone to do it.

It's just not a viable answer for someone who uses Slack day to day.

Until we find ways to deal with these super hard to solve problems, these suggestions are largely not useful. Many of us have tried corporate IRC servers and lol, how bad does that go.

in reply to R.I.Pienaar

@ripienaar
Zulip is so much better than Slack (topics not threads! so much better— and i am someone who cannot choose an e-mail subject to save my life), also better than IRC. Zulip is what we moved to.

Free software that you *can* self-host but also available as a service.

I think for many it will hit that sweet spot between convenience and freedom/control.

https://zulip.com/

in reply to benjamin melançon

@mlncn anything that involves threads does sound like it should be an e-mail.
It does sound like we reinvent email for a lot of things for those that don't "like" e-mail.

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