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Dear @Gargron,

A fediverse server called Threads is violating mastodon.social’s second server rule:

“2. No racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia…
Transphobic behavior such as intentional misgendering and deadnaming is strictly prohibited.”

https://glaad.org/smsi/report-meta-fails-to-moderate-extreme-anti-trans-hate-across-facebook-instagram-and-threads/

Can you please defederate from this server to protect the trans people on mastodon.social?

Thank you.

PS. It’s run by these guys: https://techcrunch.com/2024/03/26/facebook-secret-project-snooped-snapchat-user-traffic/

#mastodonSocial #fediblock #threads #meta #mastodon #transphobia

This entry was edited (1 month ago)
in reply to Aral Balkan

Piling on here, I could not agree more. The Fediverse is a welcoming space that takes people as they are, with essentially the singular exception of hateful people.

I'm sure I've spoken poorly more than once, and I'll never truly be the person that I aspire to be. But I come from a place of acceptance, love, and equality and it seems reasonable to me to expect the same in return.

in reply to Aral Balkan

"akschually, Threads should be federated because muh freedom of speech" comments in 3... 2... 1...
in reply to Jonathan Lamothe

@me not sure what you're trying to tell me here. For me Gab is a breeding ground for hate speech even more than facebook so I don't see the double standards in question
in reply to Witix :verified_gay:

@Witix :verified_gay: One was just more deliberate about it than the other. I'll admit that Gab was worse, but the end result is that whether by design, incompetence or sheer apathy, Meta can't keep its hate groups under control either, and should be defederated for that reason (among others).
in reply to Aral Balkan

This is a tough one, because a mastodon server has 2 choices: block users and block servers. Generally, you'd block a server if its own managers are unable to moderate their own users (thereby making it in the interest of the server managers to maintain some moderation). However, I think we can all agree that Threads is going to be a hot-mess that is never going to be seriously moderated.

So, the question is, "how" can this be done without completely cutting them off? Or, perhaps it's best NOT to accommodate them and just shut them off?

I have lots of family on Facebook, but my account has been inactive for 5yrs now. I'd like to avoid ever going there and just have them on here -somehow. But, I'd rather not hear from them and avoid hearing a bunch of nazi ranting and disinformation every day.

If there's a way to do it, it would be cool. If not.... meh. block them.

in reply to Dan Morris

@Dan Morris If Meta with all its billions can't moderate that dumpster fire, I'm certainly not going to. I defederated before they even launched.
in reply to Aral Balkan

of all the pro-meta blog posts in the past six months, I have never read anything to the tune of "Threads is bound by Mastodon's terms of service like any other instance."

Hundreds of thousands of published words and none formed a sentence close to that. Not even in the form of a question. Odd.

in reply to Aral Balkan

I'm not big on censorship, but I know dog-whistle reactionary kaka when I hear it.
Pull the pin on #threads.
in reply to Aral Balkan

I have already blocked Threads and have no interest in any connection with them.
in reply to Aral Balkan

Didn’t the majority of the users here ran away from one person making all the decisions?
in reply to Aral Balkan

its a tough one..
For me personally the primary reason to defederate threads is history - for decades large corpos have followed agressive assimilation principle. There are barely any exceptions and I cant come up with any, its highly likely threads will be such a case again.

On the other hand, federating with threads gives access to millions of new users that can be positively influenced, threads brings with it potential to take fedi out of fringe and into mainstream.

Unknown parent

Aral Balkan
@YennyPenny1 Right, why should we care about the well being of others, right? Excellent philosophy. Very caring. Very humane. *smh* Goodbye.
in reply to Aral Balkan

It's symbolic because I've not yet opened the instance to users yet, but I've blocked threads.net and don't know any reason for not blocking threads other than interests that, for one reason or another, align with threads or meta. #Fediblock #Threads #BlockThreads
in reply to Aral Balkan

Still haven’t seen one argument that makes sense to have bloody meta in the fediverse.
People on meta will NEVER care 1 second about the fediverse. If you want to connect with your family on meta, join meta. The whole point of the fediverse was being an alternative, not a replacement.
in reply to Aral Balkan

Just to give the other side of this: there are probably a lot of pro-trans people who see server-level defederation of an instance as big as Threads as a draconian over-reaction in light of available user-level blocking tools. I just don't see any room in this thread for reasonable disagreement. It doesn't help that the few people I *am* seeing disagree are wearing their awfulness on their sleeves. Social media incentivizes a black-or-white viewpoint and I see tons of that here.
in reply to Mister Moo 🐮

@MisterMoo And are all these pro-trans people who want to federate with Threads in the room with you now?
in reply to Aral Balkan

I'm sure I don't understand that sentence but, in any event, I swore I would avoid unproductive social media debates and I've already baited one by expressing any skepticism whatsoever here so 🪄👻
in reply to Aral Balkan

New here.. .Can you explain how something typed on a screen can hurt anyone? Are you saying that some people are so fragile that words ruin them? If you are trying to make the platform WOKE, then just say it. People don't need to be here. If this is not a platform of free speech and fair debate, then just say it. Brand yourselves as extreme left. It is your right to be any flavor you want. If you think you can survive on that market, then go for it. I support your efforts. But don't ever think you can bully me into how I should think. That will never happen.
in reply to Aral Balkan

then don’t follow people on threads? I’m confused.
in reply to Aral Balkan

If we grow, there will always be a ton of people able to make a decent argument that something is racist, sexist, homophobic or transphobic. it will be endless battles between mods over what justifies action or else face defederation. and also tons of individuals having no idea they are silenced by entire servers. I get strict rules internally but servers blocking/silencing servers or individuals must require a higher bar and be done more transparently. #fediblockmeta
This entry was edited (1 month ago)
in reply to william.maggos

If the two links I provided in the original post do not meet your bar for defederation then there’s something wrong with your bar. It also tells me your instance is not a safe space for vulnerable groups. And if your instance happens to be the flagship one and you’re fine with this, it tells me you’re legitimising this behaviour on the greater network.

#fediblockmeta #fediblock #meta

This entry was edited (1 month ago)
in reply to Aral Balkan

@wjmaggos You mean vulnerable groups that don’t include Black and Brown people. There’s plenty of evidence regarding how they’ve been treated especially during the great Twitter migration, by many of the same people and instances worried about Threads, yet those instances weren’t defederated. I’m all for protecting people but clearly you guys are only about protecting white people. Didn’t see this outrage when Black people expressed their treatment
in reply to darth_akeda

@darth_akeda Clearly, you’re making assumptions about people you don’t know. But I am white-passing and you probably assume I’m also American so I guess that’s why. (Hint: I’m from the part of the world that Americans bomb.)

Anyway, so, needless to say, no, of course that’s not what I mean but I also don’t appreciate being attacked for what you assume me to be.

in reply to Aral Balkan

Not only anti-trans. Chaya Raichik ("Libs of TikTok") is on Threads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libs_of_TikTok

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/libs-tiktok-x-chaya-raichik-bomb-threat-twitter-of-libsoftiktok-rcna102784

in reply to Aral Balkan

Genuine question, how is defederating threads protecting trans people?
in reply to Aral Balkan

I’m not sure if I agree completely with this statement.

Defederating Gab, poa.st, cum.salon or RapeMeat was really a no-brainer.

Those were instances created by trolls/fascists/homophobic/misogynist admins, and specifically dedicated to people who share the same ideas and the same ways of treating others.

There’s literally no doubt of the ideology of a person who joins one of those instances: if you join Gab or poa.st, then it’s quite easy to identify your ideas as well.

Can we say the same about Threads? Can we say that everybody there is a transphobic, or a Nazi, or a troll? Can we say that the admins explicitly embrace and actively promote these ideologies?

When you have an instance with millions of accounts, you’re always statistically likely to get jerks. The questions that admins have to ask before defederating are:

  1. Are jerks a clear majority there?
  2. Are the failures at moderation due to the website administration actively promoting jerks (like it’s the case for Musk’s shithole), or are they due to the challenges of scaling up moderation, or to bars that are just set higher than many Fediverse admins?
  3. If we defederate it, what are the risks of cutting out a lot of useful traffic (like institutional accounts, or harmless accounts that are followed by many users on our instances)? In other words, does the signal/noise ratio justify sacrificing the signal in order to protect users from the noise?
  4. What are our thoughts about striking a balance between protecting our users from abuse vs. giving them a chance to connect to whoever they want to?

I have the impression that for Threads the response to these questions is negative, at least for now.

Of course, I’m monitoring the situation, and I’m ready to pull the drawbridge at the first signs that Threads has a negative net added value for the Fediverse.

But that doesn’t seem the case for now IMHO (I actually see a lot of nice/decent people on Threads that are genuinely curious about the Fediverse), and I’m not sure if I would handpick a few cases of moderation failures to make an argument in favour of defederation (rather than individual blocks/bans/mutes).

in reply to Fabio Manganiello

Have you actually clicked the links in the post and read the articles?

(Because the issue here is that Facebook/Meta is a bad actor, that Facebook/Meta are not moderating transphobia, etc. And that Facebook/Meta should not be federated with in the same way that any other fediverse instance that does what they do would be. If they’re not being defederated then it’s for one reason alone: their size and what some people feel they can gain from that audience.)

This entry was edited (1 month ago)
in reply to Aral Balkan

I’m very well aware of Meta’s challenges with content moderation. And I definitely would like them to be called more accountable for this.

I’m just challenging the idea that full defederation of a platform with millions of people is the right way to respond to these failures, or if more granular measures (blocks/mutes) can be implemented.

Again, if the tree was rotten at its very roots (Gab, poa.st etc.), there would be no doubt about it.

If the head of the platform was actively engaging and promoting hateful ideologies (like Musk), there wouldn’t be any doubt either.

But for now I don’t see any such strong signals from Thread.

in reply to Fabio Manganiello

So you’re ok federating with a company that literally bought a VPN service so they could man-in-the-middle attack the encrypted communications of their users while they were using the services of their competitors. This is who you’re giving the benefit of the doubt to?
This entry was edited (1 month ago)
in reply to Aral Balkan

so because Zuckerberg isn’t enough of a pathetic, desperate, insecure narcissist like Musk but instead a quiet sociopathic piece of shit, he gets to spread unfettered hate? lmao
in reply to Asta [AMP]

far from it, I want him called accountable for his unethical business practices, for his failures at moderation and for being a sociopath.

It’s just that I don’t think that full defederation of a platform with millions of users, and giving up our chance of finally making the Fediverse more mainstream and stopping using other platforms to communicate with our friends and relatives, is the best solution.

in reply to Fabio Manganiello

I don’t think viewing this as “a chance to make the fediverse more mainstream” is correct. This is the fediverse equivalent of the infamous casting couch: bluntly, we’re going to get fucked and get nothing out of it. Meta has enough lawyers, engineers, compute power and paid product managers to make sure he gets way more out of this than anyone else will. He doesn’t enter into arrangements this like unless he gets more out of it than he puts in. If the “plan” on the fedi end is 1. Federate, 2. ????, 3. Social media freedom, then there’s no way in hell the fediverse is going to end up the winner here.
in reply to Fabio Manganiello

no server should have millions of followers. It goes against everything that makes the fediverse...well...diverse. The fact that servers can be held accountable is what drives the need for moderation, it's a tool in the arsenal of any decent admin. Threads takes a huge shit on all admins because they are monolithic.

Threads takes away tools for moderation from all servers, so that's why anyone with any sense should defederate now.

This entry was edited (1 month ago)
in reply to Fabio Manganiello

@fabio @eatyourglory
#Meta is like a tumour: it cares only about its own survival and growth, regardless of the effects on the society on which it feeds. It doesn't matter if people are slaughtered brutally, democracy gets perverted or the UK and the EU are weakened, as long as it helps Meta show more adverts.

The decision we face is not whether to defederate millions of people who would otherwise set up Fedi accounts: it's whether to defederate millions of people who want to access Fedi via Meta, with all the toxicity and dirty tricks that entails. We have no reason to believe that Meta will behave honourably and openly towards us, because we already know how they behave towards everyone else. Giving them the benefit of the doubt means waiting for them to miraculously change their character because we think we're a special case, and then crying into our milkshakes when we realise it's too late and we're drowning in Meta's garbage.

Don't think they care about Fedi: they really don't. To them, Fedi is something that Meta can use either to make money or avoid fines, and if Fedi is ruined in the process, so be it.

Our response should be to defederate them and to publicly explain why, in a well written, authoritative piece that anyone can see without needing a Fedi account. #Threads users who want access to Fedi can set up Fedi accounts: either on civilised instances, where we'll welcome them, or on fash instances, where the rest of us don't have to think about them.

in reply to C++ Guy

@CppGuy @fabio @eatyourglory yeah, despite being left leaning and following progressive pages and channels, right wing conspiracy BS is constantly being pushed on my timeline. Blocking and reporting doesn't help. Meta's algorithm is a dumpster fire 🔥.
in reply to Rik D'huyvetters

@Rik_Dhuyvetters @fabio @eatyourglory
It's not a mistake. They're keeping you engaged by keeping you enraged. And it's not good for you:

https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/study-social-media-use-linked-to-decline-mental-health

(The headline refers to social media in general, but the article is specifically about #Facebook.)

in reply to C++ Guy

I’m very well aware of all of this. But there’s a plot twist when you actually access Threads from the Fediverse.

Mastodon or Pleroma don’t have algorithmically curated timelines. They simply lack Meta’s engagement machinery.

It means that I can select the accounts I want to follow on Threads, and those activities (and only those activities) will appear on my timeline, in chronological order like everything else.

No “accounts to follow”. No “you may be also be interested in this content”. No algorithmic tricks to shuffle what gets shown in front of you eyes in order to increase your engagement.

in reply to Fabio Manganiello

@fabio @Rik_Dhuyvetters @eatyourglory
Understood. But I feel that we who understand the issues have a moral duty not to help #Meta: not by feeding it information about ourselves, and not by doing anything it can use to increase its users' engagement with its platform.

If Meta's users can access Fedi from where they already are, they have less incentive to step outside and find an experience free of advertising, tracking and Meta's unhealthy mind games.

in reply to C++ Guy

we’re already feeding information about ourselves to Meta, unless our profiles are private and authorized fetch is enabled on the instance (and webfinger is disabled). A quick test is to search for our profile handle on a search engine. If our profiles are already publicly accessible, the odds are that some crawler or bot instance is already scooping them out.

About giving people incentives to migrate to the Fedi: I’ve personally given up. It won’t happen. Just like I’ve been waiting for two decades for people to move to Linux. If even relatively tech savvy people like my wife or my colleagues after all this time are still stuck using MacOS or Meta’s products, I think that the percentage of the population that will do such a big jump (either to a new OS or to a new social media), and especially won’t churn too soon, will always be below the single digit percentage. Everybody hates Meta, everybody knows how many awful things they’ve done, yet nobody is moving from their products because that’s where everybody else is. Until we provide something that can compete with “(almost) everybody’s content is here”, we won’t go far. Sometimes if Mohammed won’t move to the mountain, we’ve gotta move the mountain to Mohammed.

in reply to Fabio Manganiello

@fabio @Rik_Dhuyvetters @eatyourglory
We can't wait for people to move to Linux: we have to help them. I've managed to move two family members and one friend to #Linux. I've got maybe a dozen people regularly using #Signal because I refused to use #WhatsApp and wasn't afraid to explain why. I've migrated at least three people from #Chrome to #Firefox.

IMHO, allowing Fedi to become a small curiosity on the outskirts of #Threads would be our death knell. We mustn't underestimate how evil #Meta is. They don't tolerate competition, they don't play fair, and they don't care how much damage they do as long as it makes money or entrenches their hegemony.

Everyone here knows the three E's: embrace, extend, extinguish. Are you ready to be embraced?

in reply to Aral Balkan

@fabio @eatyourglory

There should be a middle ground for defederation. Like a "Read Only" option where users of a particular server can read and share the posts from another, but users on the other server can't read it reply to yours.

Like, maybe I want to read Taylor Swift's posts on threads but dont want random people on threads reading my posts.

in reply to eatyourglory

by not giving established hate groups and their large audiences direct access to us.
in reply to eatyourglory

because trans people are babies, they cannot know how to defend themself, and like... use mastodon to block servers and users, so big admin guy have to think for them.

I guess.

in reply to eatyourglory

@eatyourglory
By preventing anti-trans bigotry from spreading to other servers.

It is a long-standing principle on the Fediverse that if an instance refuses to moderate hate content, the instance is defederated.

Meta is refusing to moderate hate content so it should be defederated.

in reply to Aral Balkan

I thought mastodon dot social was sponsored by threads
in reply to Aral Balkan

Has any threads account commented a #fediverse post so far? I haven't seen a single one but I'm open for an example.

In the other direction just one comment from an Italian mastodon server to a threads post that hasn't been displayed so far in threads.

This entry was edited (1 month ago)
in reply to Aral Balkan

This is why there is federation. If this server is still federated to Threads in, let's say 6 months, I'll browse below list and pick another server.
On the other hand, I hope all the larger servers reconsider and block #Threads outright.
Because if they don't, it will play right in the hands of #Meta and all the #TechBros' social media platforms to destroy smaller independent alternatives. Just like e.g. #Amazon and #Uber are doing it in their markets.

https://fedipact.veganism.social/?v2

in reply to Aral Balkan

Interesting that nobody puts on the table the third server rule:

"3. No incitement of violence or promotion of violent ideologies...
Support for violent groups or events is prohibited."

While some usual suspects, like masto.nobigtech.es blatantly support Ukrainian genocide by Ruzzia and call nazis to Ukrainian people, and nobody asks for defederation. Why that would be? :thonking:

in reply to Aral Balkan

A lot of the people responding to your toot seemed to have skipped over the articles you linked to, and your point.

Meta is not operating openly and they are not moderating effectively.

😐

Aral Balkan reshared this.

in reply to Bear

@bear ...but isn't the practical solution moving to another server that doesn't federate with threads, that's the nice part of the fediverse, you can make choices?
@Bear
in reply to Erik Jonker

@ErikJonker @bear Of course. But when the flagship instance makes a choice, it means something. Should there be a flagship instance? No, that’s a design failure. But there is. So what they do matters. Mastodon.social federating with Meta/Facebook/Threads legitimises Meta/Facebook/Threads. One of the ways we said the fediverse (and Mastodon, initially) was different was that instances would protect people, not just leave them to fend for themselves.
in reply to Erik Jonker

Oh, I should move acc because people running things want to play nice with Satan's data collection company, and won't take the moderation, user-protection steps from the policies they pride themselves on having us read before we sign up?

And having done it already more than once I'll point out that full data portability isn't available in the Fediverse currently. You lose something every time you move, most often Followers.

Just because we can doesn't mean we should have to.

in reply to Aral Balkan

Not only that! Allowing instances driven by Meta to federate with entire Fediverse put us all content creators and authors in very big danger of being robbed from our work efforts and our money as well.
As we saw on many examples in the past, Zuckerberg's company doesn't respect any laws, rules, rights and so on, secretly stealing and then selling lots of data/content from the unaware people behind their backs.
This is absolutely unacceptable and also illegal, criminal behavior!
in reply to Aral Balkan

Wait, your admins were stupid enough to federate with Facebook? Yeesh.
in reply to madhadron

@madhadron Not my server, not my admins. But the flagship Mastodon server.
in reply to Aral Balkan

@Aral Balkan @madhadron @Eugen Rochko Not only did they choose to federate, but they actively helped Meta to do it.

Edit: typo

in reply to Aral Balkan

@rober see why I was against allow Meta to federate? 😔

As always they go first after trans people, then after the rest.

"If you dont act now because you weren't a trans person. Don't cry when you're attacked."

Unknown parent

Fabio Manganiello

I see that you aren’t an instance admin, so I assume that you have blocked the visibility of any content generated by the domain - not defederated for all the users on your instance.

If that’s the case, that’s perfectly fine. You are free to decide what content you want to see, and who is supposed to see your content.

What I criticize is the assumption that admins should take such decisions on behalf of all the users on their instance, and criticize other admins who haven’t taken the same decision.

in reply to Aral Balkan

I would start with more basic things. Currently, users are not able to manage even comments under their own posts: they can't delete a comment without involving server admins; there is no way to close the ability to comment on a specific post or all posts. The ability to decide which instances to ban and which not to ban should also be brought to the user level. It's up to the user to decide to whom their content can be made available.
Unknown parent

they are simply handing over all their people’s content to threads to gobble up into their advertising AI monster.


You seem to have a public profile. Do you know that everything you post is already public - and probably it’s already been used to train AI models, given how cheap it is to scrape the Fediverse?

Threads doesn’t even need to openly federate and engineer their own solution. It just needs a tiny instance that flies under the radar, connects to a relay and follows a couple of accounts through bots.

And even assuming that we as admins can spot all those instances and block them as they pop up, they can still whip up their own crawlers that scrape all public content on the Fediverse. Or just scrape search results.

There’s a widely common misconseption that having a Fediverse profile is more privacy-friendly than having a profile on one of those platforms. The truth is that having a public profile on a platform that leverages open protocols and open APIs isn’t compatible with the idea of privacy. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

This entry was edited (1 month ago)
in reply to Aral Balkan

Why do people even federate with mastodon.social? Defederate with mastodon.social.
in reply to counterinduration

@counterinduration There are three reasons I still federate. If any one of them stops being a thing, I'll defederate (I've considered it).

  • A lot of interesting people land there because they haven't yet had a chance to find a better instance.
  • They don't seem to be intentionally doing bad things.
  • They haven't posed enough of a moderation problem on my end yet (I've been able to just block the odd idiot).


Meta fails at point number two, and because of that, I haven't given them the chance to fail point number three.

Edit: typo

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