Not responding to the poll, as requested, though I would have picked "Yes, but...", with the caveat being that our government should be held more accountable for their actions than the people who empowered them, and historically the ones who do the dirty deeds have never caught so much as a pongy whiff of their own dung rolling downhill.
it's a tricky one. The government is obviously unhinged, and only a minority of people voted for it, some under misguided hopes. So, no, but... I guess they should work to make it change (not easy I know), and show another, more caring side of the country.
FWIW, it applies to all countries, including those with genocidal and warmongering governments. I have made a point not to conflate the entire population with the elected officials wielding weapons and rhetoric.
That government should be held accountable and the ppl who gladly colaborated in the atrocities (like the ICE officials that could say that thet were only following orders), but not the regular ppl. They are victims after all, and if we want to unleash rage, maybe we should point it towards the media propaganda apparatus and their liches.
Russians are held accountable for their government actions. Venezuelans, Cubans, Iranies and dozens of other countries have economic danctions imposed on them. Almost any USian will thank soldiers for their service, a service that involves violently imposing USs will, extracting resources by force and toppling those who oppose them. Collective punishment might be unfair, however many USians should be held accountable for a system that profits them and that they actively support.
I come from Germany and know our history. There is a point in every autocracy that turns away from its democracy, where the entire people become responsible for not having opposed the actions of those in power.
@shauna what are some ways that citizens of other countries are held accountable for their government's actions?
I can think of a few: social ostracism, deplatforming, boycott, bans from contests or events, economic sanctions, travel restrictions. There's a really big range in there.
NO. Billionaires and Corporations should be accountable because they are the ones running the show and own the media that Americans rely on to make the right decisions.
I'm an Australian, and our "centre-left" government just said they supported Trump's bombings in Iran despite is clearly breaking International Law.
I have never been so angry with my government, and I voted further left than them. So I don't think I should be held accountable for their actions. But I am also continuously thinking of ways I can support the International community, despite them.
@Evan Prodromou I am not going to vote in the poll, since you said no U.S. respondents. But place yourselves in American's shoes. What if your candidate did not get into office and did a bunch of things you personally consider morally wrong? Should we hold you accountable for not having enough votes on your side? Should we hold you accountable for being a victim of the very regime you did not select? Should we hold Jews accountable for what the Nazis did? Should we hold rape victims accountable for what their rapist did?
Punishing the victims is morally wrong, destructive, and counterproductive. We should not punish the powerless for being powerless. Their oppressors already do that enough.
I believe that it's the fault of the international bourgeoisie and their international regime of socioeconomic terrorism. The workers are not responsible, the oligarchy is.
Thanks all who responded. I thought the conversation was very interesting. Thanks to everyone who replied. As a US respondent, I'm going to forego answering.
US citizen here, living in the US . . . being held accountable for the current administration feels like the group assignments in school where one did all the work but gets a poor grade because the rest didn't participate. And I have to say I kinda resent that idea.
@lakelady @Evan Prodromou Non-US citizen here, and I agree that that's a very fair take. A lot of people in the US appear to be deeply opposed to the things going on.
@me @lakelady so, Russians can't travel, aren't invited to sports or academic events, have inflation, can't get certain goods. They're being held accountable for the actions of the Russian government.
@shauna what are some ways that citizens of other countries are held accountable for their government's actions?
I can think of a few: social ostracism, deplatforming, boycott, bans from contests or events, economic sanctions, travel restrictions. There's a really big range in there.
I think I'm a "no" on the question as asked. I am all for boycotting abhorrent views, but most Americans do not support Trump or the Trump administration - a supermajority of those who travel internationally or live abroad. I tend to lean towards "don't shun people" - but I have a line where I stop debating/discussing and disengage.
most people in bad places think they are quietly rebelling when they are actually complying or even benefiting. I guess if one is driving a gas-powered car in the country that just pulled out of the Paris Agreement and passed a law discouraging renewable energy and electric cars, one might think they're not part of the problem, but one is.
eeps - missed the start of this and the poll, but interesting to consider.
There is huge range and nuance to "held accountable for" the governments actions.
Both collective punishment for the actions of a few, and individual punishment for haplessly being part of a collective offence are problematic to me. If "punishment" is intended.
Citizens who are *participating* in the fraudulent, destructive and illegal activities should damn well be accountable for their participation.
I only saw this after the vote expired so I didn't vote, I'd vote "No, but..." if I can. I live in China. As Chinese people can't meaningfully vote AT ALL and Chinese people was constantly blamed for whatever the gov run by Communist Party of China (by the way it's NOT socialism society in here, only capitalism with regional flavor) is doing (and "you can overthrown the gov if you want basic respect from me" kind of BS), I can't consciously vote "Yes". Sure there are horrible people, and many do approve whatever reprehensible things the government is doing, but it's also awful to punish people for their nationality. I don't have problem with making those people that wish others hurt miserable, but what about the others?
@Orca so, I think the argument is that most people who are actually implicated think they are not. I voted for the other candidate! I was outraged at the arrests, but what could I do? I don't want to benefit from the tax cuts, but what am I going to do, give the money back? Bad governments exist because the vast majority of people think they are quietly rebelling when they are actually complying.
Your (Did you mentioned being a US citizen?) government has one explicitly evil Fascist party and one controlled opposition party that blames citizens (for not voting them) and denounce one (very promising one) of their own candidates more than they actually fight against Fascist policies. And your country have a big racism problem, with more white people being racist assholes than not, that don't mind people get hurt unless it's themselves.
So if you're determined to change that, how? "Vote blue no matter what"? (pfff) Civil disobedient? Protest? Riot?
If you do think it's the citizens' fault for fail to prevent the government from going rogue, then to what extent? If they're to be held accointable, are we going to punish the one that only voted but didn't do anything else? Or the one that only protested but didn't participated in full-on riot? Or are we just going to say everyone's punishable?
Does being held accountable mean getting thrown in jail when you cross the border?
Or does it mean that others don't let you brush off criticism and expect you to own it and accept responsibility?
"Your country pulled out of the Paris Agreement, putting the world's chances of getting to net zero by 2050 at serious risk. How could you let that happen?"
Max Lee
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Log 🪵
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Olivier Mehani
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •it's a tricky one. The government is obviously unhinged, and only a minority of people voted for it, some under misguided hopes. So, no, but... I guess they should work to make it change (not easy I know), and show another, more caring side of the country.
FWIW, it applies to all countries, including those with genocidal and warmongering governments. I have made a point not to conflate the entire population with the elected officials wielding weapons and rhetoric.
Dr. Quadragon ❌
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Fuck no.
To Hell with this "collective blame" bullshit. It's a logic crutch at best, and mostly just an excuse for prejudice. It helps no one.
Crime doesn't have a nationality, criminals do have names and birth dates.
Erebus
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Juan Per¢ent,🇲🇽 🍉
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Almost any USian will thank soldiers for their service, a service that involves violently imposing USs will, extracting resources by force and toppling those who oppose them.
Collective punishment might be unfair, however many USians should be held accountable for a system that profits them and that they actively support.
Aljoscha Rittner (beandev)
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Space Hobo
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Space Hobo • • •Shauna GM
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Shauna GM • • •@shauna what are some ways that citizens of other countries are held accountable for their government's actions?
I can think of a few: social ostracism, deplatforming, boycott, bans from contests or events, economic sanctions, travel restrictions. There's a really big range in there.
Karin!
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Karin! • • •alcinnz
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Radio Free Trumpistan
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •But I didn't vote for that.
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Radio Free Trumpistan • • •Lee 🌏
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Billionaires and Corporations should be accountable because they are the ones running the show and own the media that Americans rely on to make the right decisions.
Todd Alström
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Terminhell
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Nathan A. Stine
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •John 🎵
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •I'm an Australian, and our "centre-left" government just said they supported Trump's bombings in Iran despite is clearly breaking International Law.
I have never been so angry with my government, and I voted further left than them. So I don't think I should be held accountable for their actions. But I am also continuously thinking of ways I can support the International community, despite them.
Scott M. Stolz
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •@Evan Prodromou I am not going to vote in the poll, since you said no U.S. respondents. But place yourselves in American's shoes. What if your candidate did not get into office and did a bunch of things you personally consider morally wrong? Should we hold you accountable for not having enough votes on your side? Should we hold you accountable for being a victim of the very regime you did not select? Should we hold Jews accountable for what the Nazis did? Should we hold rape victims accountable for what their rapist did?
Punishing the victims is morally wrong, destructive, and counterproductive. We should not punish the powerless for being powerless. Their oppressors already do that enough.
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Scott M. Stolz • • •Michael Stanclift
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •don't blame me, I voted for her.
And her.
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Michael Stanclift • • •Jackie 🍉🏳️⚧️☭
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •I believe that it's the fault of the international bourgeoisie and their international regime of socioeconomic terrorism. The workers are not responsible, the oligarchy is.
I am an American tho
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •lakelady
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Jonathan Lamothe
in reply to lakelady • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Jonathan Lamothe • • •Dave Neary
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Dave Neary • • •@dneary
cosocial.ca/@evan/114775369000…
Evan Prodromou
2025-07-01 01:25:45
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Dave Neary
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
in reply to Dave Neary • • •Johanna, CanCon variant
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •eeps - missed the start of this and the poll, but interesting to consider.
There is huge range and nuance to "held accountable for" the governments actions.
Both collective punishment for the actions of a few, and individual punishment for haplessly being part of a collective offence are problematic to me. If "punishment" is intended.
Citizens who are *participating* in the fraudulent, destructive and illegal activities should damn well be accountable for their participation.
Orca 🌻 | 🎀 | 🪁 | 🏴🏳️⚧️
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •I live in China. As Chinese people can't meaningfully vote AT ALL and Chinese people was constantly blamed for whatever the gov run by Communist Party of China (by the way it's NOT socialism society in here, only capitalism with regional flavor) is doing (and "you can overthrown the gov if you want basic respect from me" kind of BS), I can't consciously vote "Yes". Sure there are horrible people, and many do approve whatever reprehensible things the government is doing, but it's also awful to punish people for their nationality.
I don't have problem with making those people that wish others hurt miserable, but what about the others?
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Orca 🌻 | 🎀 | 🪁 | 🏴🏳️⚧️ • • •Orca 🌻 | 🎀 | 🪁 | 🏴🏳️⚧️
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Your (Did you mentioned being a US citizen?) government has one explicitly evil Fascist party and one controlled opposition party that blames citizens (for not voting them) and denounce one (very promising one) of their own candidates more than they actually fight against Fascist policies. And your country have a big racism problem, with more white people being racist assholes than not, that don't mind people get hurt unless it's themselves.
So if you're determined to change that, how? "Vote blue no matter what"? (pfff) Civil disobedient? Protest? Riot?
If you do think it's the citizens' fault for fail to prevent the government from going rogue, then to what extent? If they're to be held accointable, are we going to punish the one that only voted but didn't do anything else? Or the one that only protested but didn't participated in full-on riot? Or are we just going to say everyone's punishable?
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Orca 🌻 | 🎀 | 🪁 | 🏴🏳️⚧️ • • •well, what does punishment even mean here?
Does being held accountable mean getting thrown in jail when you cross the border?
Or does it mean that others don't let you brush off criticism and expect you to own it and accept responsibility?
"Your country pulled out of the Paris Agreement, putting the world's chances of getting to net zero by 2050 at serious risk. How could you let that happen?"