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I think centralized social media is the reason we fucked up a lot of decentralized social media.

I was thinking earlier about Lemmy, and how when Reddit did their API changes everyone tried to rush to Lemmy. Which would be fine, except everyone tried to just recreate reddit. Everyone tried to make Everything servers. Do we need ten thousand Technology subs? Not really. But people just tried to all make large general purpose instances with all the generic subs. Because they feel like they have to recreate reddit--ALL of them.

Nobody needs to run a Whole Reddit. Something like Lemmy would have been better if 99% of instances were single or limited topic. Keep the scale small, keep the moderation focused and knowledgeable.

I remember checking out Revolt, which is a discord alternative, and I think it has the same scale problem. Discord has three basic levels: channels, servers, and Discord itself which is a collection of servers. Revolt assumes that you don't want to self host a server, you want to self host a Discord. You want to self host All Of Discord. I don't think that's the case for most people! They want to run their one server!

Decentralized social media can't take a centralized approach, you can't try to recreate these horrible giant bloated behemoths but now with less budget and less moderation. You have to relearn to think at a smaller scale, the beauty of decentralization is that we can link all these smaller scale projects together.

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in reply to lori

My favorite sub was /r/AskHistorians - aggressively moderated, top comments by vetted experts, its great. Niche subs like that should have their own Lemmy server. Think thehistorychannel.social , omg it would be great. Fuck, I would _pay_ for that.

And by pay I mean I would help pay for the _hosting_ for that.

This entry was edited (8 months ago)
in reply to lori

I want back single forums ! Where is the old web, full of blogs and forums and personal web sites ?
in reply to lori

I think you’re right, and somewhere in here I think there’s an important subtlety: Somewhere along the way it seems like many of us forgot the whole concept of community.

In my recent interactions with teenagers, it feels like everyone wants to be the person with a billion followers. There’s no consideration for who those followers should be and what kind of relationship you should have with them. It’s just “number go up!”

in reply to lori

I hadn't thought of it this way at all, but you're right. Thanks for articulating it so well and giving me plenty to think about 🙂
in reply to lori

cosigned, all of this! Cosocial began an experiment with a Lemmy server, but quickly found we didn’t have a space for what people seemed to think it should be, the whole “all of Reddit” idea.

Mastodon.social is itself a demonstration of this problem, and its paradigm encouraged things like counter.social, and even Spoutible - clones wanting to be “the new Twitter” and feeling like they needed the “everyone must BE HERE AND HERE ONLY” in order to survive.

in reply to lori

itd be neat if there was an ActivityPub based forum backend. Not like Lemmy where you host a forum farm, just individual forums
in reply to Luna

@lunakitty there is the lemmybb project but the last time I looked at it it was very alpha, no idea how it's doing now
@Luna
in reply to lori

the great thing about being able to create any sub on any server is that you have somewhere to go when one server or sub isn't run the way you like. That's the entire democratic benefit of the fediverse.
in reply to roofuskit

@roofuskit But instead of any sub on any server people tried to make every sub on every server in an attempt to replicate a gigantic corporate website without having anywhere near the resources to do so
in reply to lori

to a first approximation, everyone is fine with authoritarianism so long as they are the one in charge
in reply to lori

It's really interesting to consider an instance not as a source of identity, but of topic and moderation hereof. How would things differ if you didn't register with a particular instance - you posted to it when the topic and people were right. Instances would be like mailing lists or groups.

Of course, that leaves identity unhandled. In ActivityPub that still requires an instance, so I don't know how different it *can* be, but I really think you got the right idea.

in reply to lori

>Do we need ten thousand Technology subs? Not really. But people just tried to all make large general purpose instances with all the generic subs. Because they feel like they have to recreate reddit--ALL of them.

yeah idk why there isn't a better way to consolidate all the different "technology", " programming", "memes" boards into combined views

in reply to lunchy

@lunch even if it's just on the client side, let ME combine them if nothing else
in reply to lori

@lunch reddit has multireddits you can make and share with others, so we can just do that
in reply to lori

This is probably correct; I took a gander at Lemmy before deciding to stay on Reddit, because instead of r/cyberpunkgame for example (the subreddit for Cyberpunk 2077), you had... 8(?) individual replacements all with like 80 people in it. At most.
in reply to Why Not Zoidberg? 🦑

@WhyNotZoidberg yeah honestly the other problem with Lemmy is that I think the only reason people use Reddit is because there are so many people there. Not because they love how Reddit works.
in reply to lori

Yeah, Reddit is the successor to the old usenet groups and quite frankly a lot of games have better communities on Reddit that on their respective official forums. Which is why I still use it, 90% of the subreddits I have joined is for games I play.

For a new network to be able to saddle that responsibility so to speak there has to be some very thought thru adaptations happening.

in reply to lori

@WhyNotZoidberg that is the default problem of each and every social media platform. No people => No Posts => No people. The fediverse is somewhat breaking with this because of federation, but as you pointed out: we have to utilise it better.
in reply to lori

I believe a key solution to this is Group-to-Group following:

blog.erlend.sh/transitioning-r…

blog.erlend.sh/openindie/group…

in reply to lori

this is activitypub by design at this point. Creating a magazine/group is done on a server. Only very large instances will get enough traction that others will follow the group on another instance. So the key problem is that the larger the instance the bigger the groups become, the better the group will spread. And the larger that community.

Until that instance goes down, losing a lot of big communities at once!

It could be partially solved by introducing additional hash tags. But yea

This entry was edited (8 months ago)
Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source
lori
@thegibson I've been a big proponent of just going back to forums but it's a hard sell for most people. Especially because old forum software is a lumbering mess of baggage and new forum software just...sucks...
in reply to lori

yeah! When people ask me why a federated thing isn’t like Twitter or Reddit these days I just say, “No, but nothing is. Maybe it’s just that the Twitter / Reddit you knew is dead? Other things are different.”
in reply to lori

Part of it to is that decentralized social media is sold as more similar to what's it trying to replace than what it actually is. The usage isn't necessarily 1 to 1 but a lot of people walk into it like it will be the same and are turned off by having to learn and remaster a new way to engage.

I think decentralization should build on its strengths and be more clear and honest about what it is.

in reply to lori

Slashdot was a better model! Heck, Hackaday is a better model!
in reply to lori

yes yes yes this!!! lots of projects could get lots of acquisition but they're too busy setting themselves up as The Entire Thing rather than just pieces of it
in reply to lori

I once heard Mastodon compared to a flotilla; you can’t do that if all the boats in the flotilla are cruise liners.
in reply to lori

Isn't it part of the purpose of hashtags? Except there is no ownership nor moderation of hashtags...
in reply to Zeolith :AuVerify:

@zeolith Not really the same thing. A forum-based system is centered on posts and topics, a microblogging-based system focuses on individual users. There's also a pretty big UI difference when it comes to reading a conversation influenced by those differences.
in reply to lori

agree and i think this is a symptom of the bigger open source problem which is, is our vision of a better world simply an open source clone of what the corporations do? i think none of this software really solves any problems people acutally have and is therefore destined to be niche toys for nerds forever
in reply to lori

while revolt but server focused would have probably done better, lemmy would need something like an address book to find the correct one I think, an maybe some new paradigm? Like from one reddit account I can participate in many topic but with lemmy? I could participate from a mastodon account but what about posting? Unless I'm missing something it would require a mechanism like asking a bot on the lemmy instance to boost my post or something
in reply to lori

I think that's more valid for something like Reddit clones than Twitter clones. I'm on what is nominally a topic-specific server, but my followers/follows are scattered across a hundred servers. "Topics" are far more porous here. What you're choosing is the mod team.

For what is effectively a forum, yes, server-per-topic makes sense, as long as the user-traveling-federation is seamless (as it mostly is on Mastodon).

in reply to Larry Garfield

@Crell Yeah I'm more talking about Reddit-clones, Discord-clones, etc. Fedi has its own problems with trying to replicate Twitter or whatever too but it's different than the whole topic-based posting thing.
in reply to lori

This really shows when you search for any kind topic and get 100s of communities called exactly the same, all with like 9 subscribers. All abandoned of course.

A good counter example is startrek.website that only does Star Trek related stuff

in reply to lori

@TheGibson huh. I thought Discourse is/was remarkably good. And market-leading, I believe....
in reply to lori

Definitely. People's habits from cemtralised social media follow them everywhere, to the extent that they cannot imagine why they would have to choose a server/instance. I'm sure that's a breaking point for Mastodon too, even though it's arguably the best on this front. Not knowing which instance to pick, and being scared of the term "self hosted". It was our job (the know-whats and know-hows) to make the info about those places easier to understand and capture.
in reply to Dobody

@Dobody @lori See, that's the thing that I like about the fedi. If I don't like a server's policies, I can migrate to another without being totally cut off from my contacts.

These days I self-host, so I don't have to worry so much about disagreements with my admin though. This also would not be an option elsewhere.

in reply to Jonathan Lamothe

@me Sorry abt that, maybe I wasn't clear. The ability to choose servers is the fedi's core strength, but it's also what makes it hard for people who haven't been introduced to the concept or who aren't as tech savvy. The terms "server", "selfhost", "federated", "instances" scare some people away, and it's our job to show them it's not scary and signing up is in fact painlessly simple. Otherwise they just conveniently stay in Meta's silos.

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