A great conversation in the supporter Discord/Matrix reminded me that it's about time to share this fantastic item by @heydon.
Anyway, yes HTML is a programming language and folks who argue with this statement in my comments will be muted, blocked, defederated, or all three.
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vkc (Veronica Explains)
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •The question of "is HTML a programming language" is never about definitions.
It's about excluding a group of laborers from receiving equal compensation to others, as well as a means to justify not teaching engineers how to center web content without several frameworks.
I will not be taking questions.
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Abbie π΅π·π³οΈββ§οΈπ³οΈβπ
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •I think I might.
vkc (Veronica Explains)
in reply to Abbie π΅π·π³οΈββ§οΈπ³οΈβπ • • •Abbie π΅π·π³οΈββ§οΈπ³οΈβπ
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •calvin ποΈ likes this.
vkc (Veronica Explains)
in reply to Abbie π΅π·π³οΈββ§οΈπ³οΈβπ • • •Akari Mekahime
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •ojonnysilva
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •Rebane
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •Joe Ortiz
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •mausmalone
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •vkc (Veronica Explains)
in reply to mausmalone • • •@mausmalone I don't think most rational people ever really think about it. Other than as a means to separate front-end work from other work from a compensation purpose.
Folks on the internet like to make a fuss about it but they literally couldn't design their way out of a paper bag so there's that.
Large Heydon Collider
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •Mx. Luna Corbden
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •DrYak
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •Unattributed π€ β
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •I've never viewed this question from a social equality perspective. I've only ever taken it from a technological perspective, and one of the lineage of HTML from SGML->XML->HTML.
Of course the social aspects of equality for labor goes without saying. No argument.
Daniel Fisher(lennybacon)
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •vkc (Veronica Explains)
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •CatSaladππ₯ (D.Burch)
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •Large Heydon Collider
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •vkc (Veronica Explains)
in reply to Large Heydon Collider • • •Micah
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •I couldn't care less if HTML is or isn't a "programming language"...
What I do know is that developers who write HTML are programmers, and their skills and efforts are extremely valuable. They deserve to be appropriately compensated and respected for their knowledge and work.
Ruby Jones
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •Jackie π
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •apparently, I was wrong. HTML+CSS is a programming language.
brandondong.github.io/css-turiβ¦
CSS Turing Machine Compiler
brandondong.github.iocalvin ποΈ
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •I didn't know that question was a matter of labour rights. (I'm not anywhere near that industry, though) Good to know!
I definitely thought it was some pedantic/academic watercooler conversation.
Eric Goodwin
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •Dev Albino :linux: :python:
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •Louis-Olivier Brassard
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •This recent talk from Felienne Hermans (βA Case for Feminism in Programming Language Designβ) points in a similar direction: a hard-to-learn language is βmore like programmingβ just because it isβ¦ harder to learn (than spreadsheets for example).
youtube.com/live/-Br66SUjsdQ?tβ¦
- YouTube
www.youtube.comPerma
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •imadethissite.com/posts/html-tβ¦
HTML, The Programming Language
imadethissite.comFelix
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •Like I wrote on my wiki:
HTML is a programming language. There, I said it.
It's a programming language because it lets people tell the computer to do cool stuff. In this case, show all kinds of things on screen. That's not much, you say? So what. It's fun. Meaningful. Often even useful.
So, you can't use HTML to perform computation. Big deal. It's been a long time since computers were all, or even mainly, about computation. Deal with it.
Leonard Ritter
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •that's one way to see it. but web developer and trucker were the two number one jobs in the US, and nothing drives wages down like too many applicants.
HTML/CSS is definitely a programming language though.
enamon
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •Golden Bunny of Destiny π―πΊπ¦π΅πΈ
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •Have to confess I was in the βno it isnβtβ camp for a long time. Not out of a sense of superiority (or insecurity), but on the question of Turing completeness. But I can relate to the idea of a declarative DSL, and tip my hat to those who have mastered all of the complexity of HTML and CSS across the fragmented browser landscape.
Thank you for sharing this link.
vkc (Veronica Explains)
in reply to Golden Bunny of Destiny π―πΊπ¦π΅πΈ • • •@davew yeah the whole Turing completeness thing feels rational but there's plenty out there that lacks it. Like, I'd say someone who is writing regex is programming, but I don't think it's Turing complete?
The fact that we don't have this conversation about SQL or regex betrays the real reason for the distinction IMO, and it has more to do with a perception of who is doing the work instead of a real discussion of the merits of the language.
cuan_knaggs
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •everypizza (nyx)
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •vkc (Veronica Explains)
in reply to everypizza (nyx) • • •ΓaΔatay YiΔit Εahin
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •Rebane
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •i think a good counter-example to html/css being "just markup" is all the cool stuff people on cohost came up with back when it was still around
here's a list of many of them, there's a lot of really cool stuff there (it's all inline-only css and html):
cohost.org/YellowAfterlife/posβ¦
i've made a few as well - for example
this is a 3d first person game with free movement and interactive elements: cohost.org/rebane2001/post/791β¦
and this is a blackjack implementation that implements randomness, and does math and logic to figure out what the card totals are and who won the game: cohost.org/rebane2001/post/563β¦
i don't think you need an example like one of those to call something programming, but they are pretty effective at demonstrating being "more of a program" than most landing pages programmed with a js web framework out there
i think the argument is dumb anyways because it's usually not brought up to help someone, but to instead make them seem inferior for not using "a real programming language" or to just be annoying about it
Some of the CSS crimes of all times
Vadym on cohostMatija Nalis
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •I think human tendency to shorten things is the problem. When people ask "is it programming language", they don't usually mean THAT, but "is it Turing-complete programming language". In other words: "Can I port Doom to run under it?"
Not that there aren't surprises there too: in that specific sense PostScript, LaTeX and Minecraft are "(Turing-complete) programming languages", while regexps, SQL and HTML aren't.
The term shouldn't be related to their market value, though...
hacknorris
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •Jonathan Lamothe
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • •@Veronica Explains As a former proponent of "HTML is not a programming language", I can state that this video makes a compelling argument to the contrary.
I was wrong.
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in reply to Jonathan Lamothe • • •Jonathan Lamothe likes this.
scunneen (he/him) π
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •vkc (Veronica Explains)
in reply to scunneen (he/him) π • • •@scunneen I don't know, I think someone typing into a web form (like I'm doing right now) isn't likely to be considered computer programming (same as using Word). Even though the end result is turned to HTML at some point.
But if I hand wrote an entire .docx in vim and my boss were looking behind my shoulder, they'd be forgiven for seeing the waste of time as "programming".
scunneen (he/him) π
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •You could make an argument that using Word could qualify as programming if you use advanced features like document-internal hyperlinks
scunneen (he/him) π
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •scunneen (he/him) π
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •callyral
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •funbaker #AssangeIsNotGuilty
in reply to vkc (Veronica Explains) • • •