When a #neurodivergent person tells you about how something is difficult for them, rather than thinking of them as whiny, consider that this probably means they have a certain level of trust in you to drop their mask enough to do so.
Invalidating that struggle is likely also a pretty effective way of eroding that trust. #ActuallyADHD
did you ever notice that when you say, "this is difficult for me. can you explain it again/help me through the process/give me more time to accept?", the non-nd person immediately interprets it as an excuse to *not* do something? #actuallyautistic @autistics
@emily_rugburn @autistics . itโs so exhausting, you choose your words correctly and they ignore them and insert their โinterpretation,โ instead. Itโs like talking to the cat. ๐
It's more profitable for them to "interpret" (distort) than to try to understand. Becomes habit, they do it to each other without thinking. Discard the words and keep their twisted idea of what they meant.
@emily_rugburn @angelastella @autistics . I want to use the R-word for the shock value, I want to say, Watch for my next blog, "R-worded by Violence," and I'm serious about it. It should be paranoia, but the same type that's paranoid really is dangerous to everybody, so it's complicated, but that's how I would like to classify them, disabled by their "strength."
@angelastella @punishmenthurts @autistics from all these conversations, but do people with adhd really have these issues with misinterpretation? i was way on the autistic side and my ex was wayyyy on the adhd side and they *always* misinterpreted everything i said, even after multiple conversations that i mean what i say
@emily_rugburn @angelastella @autistics . gawd, I don't know, I only hatched as Autistic a few years ago . . . . I've been thinking of Autism and Allism, NTness as opposites, I think I've heard something about people otherwise ND but still Allistic, still not Autistic . I suppose there could be both sorts, all combinations . that's all I got, I hope someone has better ๐
Used to misinterpret often until my twenties but got better at reading people (normies mostly, really). Misinterpretation was an entirely different pattern from the NT one, though.
(Still w/o formal diagnosis here. Personal certainty at 80% for ADHD, > 50% por autism; other things not at all clear but comorbidities are common; late-blooming trans, FWIW, and there are correlations with that.)
@angelastella @autistics @emily_rugburn . I'm self assessed, and I'm quite sure about Autism, but I'm starting to consider ADHD. I hadn't, because I'm not hyper, my sibling was the hyper one, but I'm starting to be open to it.
@punishmenthurts @angelastella @autistics i am definitely hyper-----when i was assessed, i was subacute adhd which is not surprising for me....i tend to get "hyper" when get overstimulated, even just finding something thats incredibly interesting to me.
@angelastella @punishmenthurts @autistics living with someone w undiagnosed adhd for over a decade has 100% allowed me to discern that i definitely absolutely do not have any features of adhd.
the amount of chaos that a person w adhd has to live with to function has allowed me to definitively learn that i never ever ever ever want to have any sort of relationship with an adhd'er again.
@punishmenthurts @angelastella @autistics high energy? it was the constantly losing stuff, important things written on teeny tiny pieces of paper that ended up somewhere, the 5 different schedule books, 6 different email addresses, 2-3 phone numbers, forgetting to pay the bills, etc etc...they were all AD and very little H
Has to live? Hmm. Confirmation that we ADHD fuckers are widely different from each other. I must tolerate my chaos because I cannot control or reduce it, but it hurts me a lot. I lived in ordered environments and didn't become nonfunctional. Autistic need for certain stimuli notwithstanding.
Not defending or justifying anything, just illustrating the AuDHD spectrum.
@angelastella @punishmenthurts @autistics there is some chaos thats required ive noticed....not that people w adhd *like* it but i think novelty is still an important aspect, correct?
Never did really calibrate my personal requirement of these inputs. I think I can manage with sort of an internal generator of novelty, variation, distraction or whatever it is.
@angelastella @punishmenthurts @autistics i think adhd is such a foreign concept to me that i cant even imagine what its like to be pulled mentally in a million different directions at once....if that does happen to me, i immediately shut down (and fall asleep amazingly)
AFAICT that interaction does not usually happen, and I have sensory processing issues that cause me to... malfunction. (Had something close to a meltdown last month during a very noisy, chaotic meeting at a place that had become dark. Not getting visual cues as to who was speaking was the last straw for me.)
@angelastella @emily_rugburn @autistics . I put myself to sleep like that once, when an acid trip went scary, an emergency shutdown button is handy sometimes
Now that you mention it, that is what happens to me when I smoke weed above a certain dose. If I remove myself from social stimuli, I fall asleep like a baby. Way easier and cleaner than with alcohol.
@angelastella @emily_rugburn @autistics . I need weed for sleep, but also to be awake. . that experience was almost fifty years ago, I thought I was having some real brain event, I wasnโt sure I was going to wake up as myself, I couldnโt think two words together, thought I was, uh, fragmented. ๐ฌ . Happily woke up OK. ๐ I mean, thatโs my opinion, LOL.
@angelastella @punishmenthurts @autistics stuff like that happens to me a lot where things bother me but seemingly do not bother other people. then i start spiraling and panicking because i dont understand why it bothers me and no one else. then i end up feeling guilty because it bothers me. then i start having a meltdown because im feeling insane about the whole situation.
@angelastella @autistics @punishmenthurts i would not be surprised if the dsm combined it all under neurodivergence in the next version *but* i still believe that adhd and autism is far less related than what people actually want it to be.
one good point, autistic people are bottom up thinkers on the whole while people with adhd can be either top down or bottom up. you already have a significant difference in thought processing that can lead to multiple misinterpretations and other issues that cause interpersonal strife.
Hmm, definitely bottom-up at heart. Learned top-down later and fragmentarily. And yes, it is at the root of miscommunication a lot of the time, even between NTs.
I also kinda like the PDA label and the NVLD things cause they feel closer? But they arent in there. I really want presentation styles. Its kinda annoying cause I think my presentation though recognizably autistic to other autisticsโฆ is very presentation different. My friends describe me as masklessโฆ
Hell, I really wasn't up to speed with these. Still learning at close to 50 because they cut us off from each other. (No, I'm not bitter, what an idea.)
@Uair @angelastella @emily_rugburn @autistics . the very stuff we have to listen to them bragging about in school, how smart humans are to have spoken language! . Drives ya nuts. ๐ ๐
@angelastella @Uair @emily_rugburn @autistics . it was surely true at some point, we do have spoken language, but itโs one of those sci-fi stories where theyโve forgotten how it works ๐๐ . glory days ๐
My theory is that we evolved as a second locus of power in a tribal society. You had the leader, who maintained power through charm and violence. And you had the gender-queer medicine person who was respected as a thinker. When the leader was about to lemming the tribe off a cliff, the medicine person would intervene. And the leader knew to back down.
I've been doing my own thinking all my life. I've got a head full of state secrets, and nobody ever told 'em to me. I never signed no NDA. I just figured that shit out on my own.
@Uair @angelastella @emily_rugburn @autistics . it doesn't necessarily fit in my system, where we were here first. And so far, it seems their type show up in charge, not taking advice from anyone, but . if that scenario ever happened, warrior king with an Autistic prime minister or consigliere, it would suggest that when the warriors showed up, some of us foolishly thought we could keep them and use them . and I was fantasizing that the Neolithic people understood at least breeding if not evolution, and would know not to do that . ๐ฒ ๐
@punishmenthurts We end up with allists in power because the ones willing to hurt others in the pursuit of power usually aren't autistic.
None of the autists I know show the slightest draw to power. The most I can say is that we're driven to find influence by a sense of injustice.
An autist will (in my limited experience) gladly give up a position of power (e.g. give a patent away or give up copyright) if it benefits the world. @Uair @angelastella @emily_rugburn @me @autistics
It's a common trait among autistics that we won't lift a finger to defend ourselves, but get ferociously defensive of people we care about.
I've never gotten in a fight, I've never punched someone who wasn't willing, and I've come close to killing five men for threatening people i cared about.
Woulda got 'em, too. The only reason they're still alive is that I checked myself. It's not who I want to be.
@hadon Don't know, don't care. I'm speaking in generalities anyway. Even if he is, exceptions are to be expected. One autistic trait he definitely does not exhibit is a strong sense of justice. @punishmenthurts @Uair @angelastella @emily_rugburn @me @autistics
@Uair @hadon @Mux @angelastella @emily_rugburn @autistics . yeah. If I had to pick, I say heโs Allistic, but if not, whatโs the difference? . Does that make being a billionaire Nazi an Autistic trait? If he pursues severely Allistic goals with all of his resources, does it matter if heโs masking, only pretending to be that? . I mean, this is personal, I have exactly this going with my ex family, they never loved me because Iโm a weirdo, it was always obvious that my in laws strove to be seen as normal and to be popular, itโs what they live for, but after they disposed of me for imaginary Allistic crimes, now they are all self diagnosed Autistics, and whatโs the difference to me? . I mean, I hope Iโm the last Autistic these heavily masking Autistics destroy. . A few famous people masking doesnโt mean itโs not a hyper Allistic thing to be what he is. People mask, people donโt know, one name means nothing.
@punishmenthurts @Uair @Mux @angelastella @emily_rugburn @autistics Goiterzan, my question was mainly in response to Mux2000: "We end up with allists in power because the ones willing to hurt others in the pursuit of power usually aren't autistic. "
@hadon @Uair @Mux @angelastella @emily_rugburn @autistics . and I agree with Mux, usually thatโs the case, aggression is more of an Allistic trait than an ND trait, I have written whole books and many blogs and a thousand toots saying that. . Iโm saying it would be less usual for an Autistic to want that much power, but it surely happens sometimes. And again, weโre talking about types and big data, one dude doesnโt prove anything or mean anything.
I was just wondering because Musk has hurt a lot of people and he said he was autistic. So, we have to watch out for prejudgements and don't assume that only a certain type of person can get to high power positions or hurt others. We all are human, autistic or not; we all are capable of good and bad :/
Nobody is better or worst than others, we are just different.
I think we have more range than neurotypicals. When we're good, we're awesome. But when we turn to the dark side, we can be some of the most evil motherfuckers out there.
@hadon @Uair @Mux @angelastella @emily_rugburn @autistics . what we all CAN do or COULD do means nothing, it doesnโt discriminate, it is the absence of information, it means nothing. Real Allistics hurt way more people than real Autistics, and that any one of them COULD go the other direction means nothing, and do you prefer things that mean nothing? You want to correct me so nothing means anything for me?
No, I don't want to correct you, I'm just reflecting out loud. And I wondered if there were scientific studies on the subject because I think science is more accurate than our individual perceptions. If there are no scientific studies on the subject I would always question my own perceptions and conclusions.
@punishmenthurts This sent me down a Google Scholar rabbit hole from which I emerged with the following conclusion - the current state of research on the intersection between autism and social values, such as control, violence and the will to power is shit. @hadon @Uair @angelastella @emily_rugburn @me @autistics
They just started seriously looking into autism ten years ago. These things take time.
Not to mention the fact that they didn't actually ask the autistic people until a couple years ago.
Ever hear of ABA? It was invented by the same prick who invented conversion therapy. I just watched "Three Kings" and the torture scene is brutal, where they loop the wires over his ears and electrocute him. Mark Wahlberg is a hell of an actor. I'm glad he didn't break his teeth making that shot.
I've seen a picture of an about five year old girl with those same wires over her ears, and her face contorted in a rictus of pain. That's ABA. Torture kids into hiding who they are.
And it was industry-standard treatment for autism until fairly recently.
It is. Should be illegal but here we are. Year or two ago some of us had to report the hell out of an account promoting ABA. To their credit, the mods at mastodon.social threw them out within the day.
(Of course we used the word "torture" in our reports.)
Because I have PDAโฆ I have some diff feelingsโฆ since my autism causes health issuesโฆ
Im in a space of willing to try anything. CBT/DBT failed. The focus on mindfulness, the part of both of those that made it fail makes me know ACT also wont work. Anything focusing on thought control is a failure. I really need something else. Its so stupid how I canโt find something to actually help me gain a rudder.
Reminds me of something Douglas Adams wrote: It is a well-known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.
Think itโs more the belief that itโs not normal to want to have power and control. That sort of desire is a dark side of our selves. And itโs not an original Adams thought.
Dear old Kurt was there before him: "There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I donโt know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president."
There's hierarchy in animal groups, so yearning for leadership is a natural trait. But natural leadership should be won in a fair way, you have to prove that you are a leader, not impose it by force. So what I consider abnormal is people who lie, cheat or kill to get to power. A real leader is respected, not feared.
@hadon @DziadekMick @Mux @punishmenthurts @Uair @angelastella @emily_rugburn @autistics Only SOME animal groups - most get along without actual leaders, using various forms and combinations of swarming, consensus and signalling to direct their group behaviour. The human perceived group behaviour is often emergent and not dictated but any subgroup or individual.
@hadon @DziadekMick @Mux @Uair @angelastella @emily_rugburn @autistics . That Good Leader fantasy that never actually happens is forever pushed by the majority to justify the filthy swine we do get and itโs not better in the primate groups, just because some primates have a dictator doesnโt somehow make that a good thing.
. the damned epstein files, thereโs your animal alphas, banging your daughters and your wife (and maybe even your dog, what was the movie, denzel and lithgow?) ๐
Our original society had no leaders. An elder, yes, but decision-making was done by a group, often advised by a shaman (or similar). I believe leaders came into being when *some fool* decided to claim a piece of land and fight for it.
And to quote somebody: Youโre not a leader without followers.
Leaderlessness works up to about 150 people. That's all the other human personalities we can keep in our mind. Make things bigger than that, and you need hierarchy. Bureaucracy. Once everybody doesn't know each other, the whole system shifts. You can say agriculture was the downfall of humanity, but I like modern medicine and the internet. I wouldn't trade for even a luxurious hunter-gatherer lifestyle. I like dentistry.
I was talking about before that, but I bet tribes still had a strong man who mostly told people what to do. Most people need someone to do their thinking for them, and there's always some aggro asshole happy to do so.
I honestly don't think modern humans are much different from the cavemen. Evolution works slow.
. oh, boy. ๐ . OK, nobody reads blogs, so Iโll try to just say it. . Some anthropologists have stories about how when an egalitarian group gets a โbig man,โ starting to push his weight around, how they arrange an accident for him and carry on with their lives. One gets the impression they know they have to nip that shit in the bud. . The scientists donโt think humans have alphas, I think they have traced alpha family genes in chimps and find no such genetics in humans. (Iโve forgotten where I got that, it may need some citation.) . But to my mind, they are all alpha aggressive, and what they are really seeing is no FEW alphas among humans, and ALL alphas - so no genetic difference exists to find. My idea is that at some point in our prehistory, somewhere in the near east, the alphas had it all their way, eliminated the beta through zeta typesโor at least their breeding, and most of humankind are now the alphasโ children. . They all look like alphas because they all think they can tell one another what to do, and they all look like alphas because they hate being told what to do. Freedom! is the cry of the alpha in a world with no-one taking their orders. They burn the books and donโt need to learn because the alpha is the teacher, they tell you what you need to know. . And my thing, spanking: . you hit a natural born subject, a zeta, you get obedience, a passive response. You โspank,โ a natural born alpha, thatโs fight training and alpha epigenetics. . So Allism is alphaism, twisted out of context. And spanking doesnโt deter them. . I wouldnโt necessarily bet the farm, but it works pretty good. . Oh - that happened with the orangutans, every one is a dormant alpha, and when an alpha dies, someone else grows the big face and such. Sapolsky told us this after Iโd guessed it about people. ๐ . and evolution works at whatever speed the environment changes or you get unselected.
. more theories and โjust so,โ evidence: . Everyone complains about the beta through zetas, the problem is the sheeple - this betrays the complainerโs neurology, they are not with the followers, they think following is stupid. Which makes the speaker alpha-compatible, they think everyone should be an alpha, thinking for themselves. Counterintuitive, maybe, divergent, maybe. . But there arenโt followers, they are all โleading,โ each other. . You see a million people going the same direction, whoโs to say itโs one leader and a million followers and not a million leaders who only know one way to go and no followers? . Ask them! See how many call themselves followers. . /2
. I wonโt spam you again, but the second last blog of the Spanking Gene Blog is the Open Letter to the Power, where I try to teach this gonzo idea to the illuminati, to stop abusing their zetas because theyโre NOT zetas and they will never settle down ๐คฃ
@Uair @DziadekMick @hadon @Mux @angelastella @emily_rugburn @autistics . for the ND - isnโt that what it feels like, the so called DEP and whatnot, like every bloody one of them seems to automatically assume theyโre your boss, every one has the god given right to tell us how weโre supposed to be about everything? ๐๐๐๐ณ
. N., Iโll offer a weakness: youโd think the rut makes every deer and elk an alpha too, the whole herd, children of alphas but they donโt sem to be in quite our state of chaos because of it, not sure what the difference would be . . . I mean, maybe they know it? They donโt assume each other are betas, etc., like humans do? . extremely speculative, of coarse. ๐ . EDIT TO ADD: I know there are many sorts of breeding controls, some animals get bred by multiple males and actively choose sperm, rejecting some and keeping others, I donโt know this about particular higher mammals, but any species with both alphas and more passive sorts must have something like that going on. With primates itโs usually just, โcheating,โ on the alphas. . Thatโs part of my idea, that somehow, somewhere, some human alpha defeated all those sorts of checks and balances. ๐
As long as we're trading made-up statistics (and make no mistake, I respected the hell out of Ted Sturgeon), I'm partial to the one which says that 10% of people are assholes and crooks, 10% are--for all practical purposes--saints, and the remaining 80% can be convinced to swing in either way. Which means: how we organize society means something. Also (partially) explains how a well-run campaign can make fascism come back almost everywhere.
My experience in queer spaces confirms this. I've seen a lot of us doing funny trajectories in the sexual orientation plane. (And don't get me started on gender! That's why I advocate "gender tourism" for everyone. Enough topic drift, I'll drop it.)
I use it as an excuse for doing good in a shitty world.
My grandfather was a monster. My family is shit. I'm still the teenage rebel flipping them the finger. And in my case, it was the right call. It was the moral decision.
@Uair @hadon @Mux @punishmenthurts @angelastella @autistics i dont use it as an excuse at all. i use it as an explanation as to *why* i do the things i do and think the way i do. its up to everyone else to determine the actual meaning and like 99% of the time, most people believe its malicious and sociopathic
Poloniosmonk, you can get away from your grandfather, you can get away from your family, but you can't get away from yourself. You're stuck having to live with yourself 24 hours a day, 7 days a week! So, you better make of him a great person to share life with ;)
The only thing I'd want unlimited power for is to use it to make sure everyone is ok, and end as much harm and suffering as I could. Ya know, outlaw bigotry, tax the rich, feed and house the poor, support the disabled... all that stuff. Power would exhaust me to death, likely literally... but it'd be worth it to do those things.
@Mux @punishmenthurts @Uair @angelastella @emily_rugburn @autistics ...if I had that power, I'd strongly prefer nobody knew it was me. I don't need nor want my name on that stuff, I just want people to be ok. Seeing people happy and safe would be all I want out of it.
This topic makes me tear up. We have all the resources for everyone to be ok, and we, as a species, just don't do it for some reason.
@hellomiakoda @Mux @punishmenthurts @Uair @angelastella @emily_rugburn @autistics I feel exactly the same way. I fantasize about being a secret billionaire who just gives their money to projects everywhere without their name on it. Giving neighbors money to fix their fence. Giving people money to fix their cars. Giving people money to get out of debt. Just giving so that we can all do better. I wouldn't want my name on it at all.
Naaah, things are changing here. Biden pardoned a shit-ton of student debt. And the Trump-backlash era, which is coming, will be ferociously progressive.
One thing is the desire to do things like these, and quite another the drive to rule over others, even to achieve these goals. Making tools out of my fellow humans it's not something I'm skilled to do. Let them find their own way, I have quite enough bossing myself.
@angelastella @bardmoss @Uair @emily_rugburn @autistics . thank you, I didnโt get it was a joke until you said so, now Iโm laughing. . At least Polonius doesnโt need a whole nuclear power plant to make him go ๐
And don't you dare have a glitch in your lexical-semantic network and substitute a word for another. They will use that against you instantly and no correction will get things back on track.
@angelastella @Uair @punishmenthurts @autistics one of my issues is using a word not in another person's vocabulary. its immediately interpreted as way to insult the other person's intelligence instead of asking for a definition (which is what i do all the time).
Of course, NTs play these stupid status and domination games all the time and they won't ever believe we don't have either the skill or the inclination for that.
@angelastella @Uair @punishmenthurts @autistics i dont in actuality. im wholly cooperative, even with people i dont particularly enjoy being around. it definitely makes me a target for ridicule. people in general just *cannot believe* that i have no malicious intent when combined with the way i look. rbf is real yo.
I've got nothing. I don't have a job, I only have 2 people in my life and one is pretty nonverbally autistic, and I'm broke as a joke. I don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out.
And I /still/ have better things to do with my time than play those stupid status games. Those are for punks who don't have it. If you really do, you don't give a shit.
@emily_rugburn @angelastella @Uair @autistics . thatโs a tough one for me, I love the perfect word, even if no-one knows it and itโs as long as your arm. ๐ณ๐ . What helps keep me grounded is I know the fancier the words are, itโs often a sign of bullshit, so I try to make myself say things in plain language, if it canโt be said plainly, itโs probably not true enough.
@punishmenthurts @angelastella @Uair @autistics i try hence the absurd amount of motherfucking cursing. also my cerebellum seems to run most of my goddamn life.
@angelastella @punishmenthurts @Uair @autistics i know! because im using the part that keeps me breathing to so my thinkin and talkin for me. the rest is just filler and useless movie trivia.
I just got fucked by that. I asked someone if a bill had to be paid up front or could be paid in arrears. Afterward, I figured out he didn't know what "in arrears" meant. He just lied to me instead.
I blame the schools. They teach you to never admit you don't know something and always try to bullshit your way through it.
Both of my gene donors worked in high schools. That was my dad's line.
You might want to hold onto that until you have the spoons. He was teacher of the year for New York City twice and New York State once. He knows of what he writes.
@Uair Gave it a listen. He's correct, of course, but it's nothing I didn't already know. Funny how he mentions that schools were a Prussian institute, but not that the Prussians were inspired by the methods brahmins used to maintain the Indian caste system... @angelastella @emily_rugburn @punishmenthurts @me @autistics
@punishmenthurts @Uair coming of age is samoa is just some white lady being shocked and appalled at what "primitive" people do.....iirc, most of the shit described in the book was bs made up by the community to fuck with mead.
Although, I really don't remember a "shocked" tone. I remember it as respectful. But this was 35 years ago and I was a dipshit kid. I'm not gonna reread it now. I have better things to do with my time.
@emily_rugburn @Uair . it's what I call Allistic science. They're good at physics and stuff, but they have a disability regarding the study of humans, they have the mythical, Human Nature sitting where a whole lot of science would be most helpful. The Davids said it gently and only once in #TheDawnOfEverything , that the Turtle Islanders found the Euro invaders to lack the "actuarial," sense, that they do not see how their treatment of one another affects society and their lives, they lack a functioning naรฏve psychology.
@punishmenthurts @emily_rugburn @Uair This is part of what I mean by saying that the #mindblindness / "theory of mind deficit" idea almost has it backwards. While #allistics do have a theory of mind, they typically let it atrophy from neglect, habitually using the automatic, intuitive mechanisms built into their #EnvironmentalYoke instead of doing any explicit theorizing. That approach may be great if all you're interested in is jockeying for position in a social hierarchy. It's not so great if you'd like to understand what kind of world your actions are building.
Hey, thank you. Back in the day I translated "The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher" for my family and friends. This essay looks like a good companion to it. I don't know which of his books I read because they were re-titled: one was something like Compulsory Miseducation. Decades ago, my now adult kids were babies.
Yes, that's true too. Some people use ambiguity for different purposes, some to wake up fear and manipulate others, make them suffer; yet ambiguity is also at the basis of humor and it may be used then to make others laugh, feel better.
@punishmenthurts @emily_rugburn @autistics No its not. My cat doesn't actively make life harder for me and amplify my problems. My cat actually cares enough to lay on my chest like a weighted blanket. My cat doesn't leave when I don't have the energy to play. My cat doesn't call me manipulative and deceitful. My cat doesn't make promises and claims only to 180 later. My cat loves me as I am.
@emily_rugburn @punishmenthurts @autistics I don't need to herd allists. I just need them to have some space for me, and make an attempt at understanding the things I say.
Heh, this is one thing I like about my Home Assistant voice assistant. I program it with what words I'm going to say. As long as I say those words, it does whatever it is I programmed it to do when I say those words. No implied meaning, no subtext, no "what Koda REALLY meant"....
@hellomiakoda @punishmenthurts @autistics im always surprised when people start yelling at computers and machines because its not doing what they want it to do "why dont you know what i mean??"
@punishmenthurts@autistics@fedigroups.social.life @me @autistics its more along the lines of....attempting to get someone to understand your perspective. its a total double empathy problem. they dont understand and i dont understand why they dont understand. i feel like allistic people have *a lot* of behavioral biases that are just reflex that arent really inherent in autistic people. (hence issues like...asking questions of an allistic person is interpreted immediately as someone trying to assert their power and dominance rather than just a simple inquiry)
@sonja @Actually Autistics I don't know that I've noticed it in exactly that way, but my masking has become so deeply ingrained over the years that I seldom give people the opportunity unless I'm very close with them.
This has occasionally been to my detriment, but it has made me into a really solid independent learner when I find something I really want to sink my teeth into.
@autistics i have noticed that it does make you into a more self-sufficient person. i feel like me saying "point me in the right direction" shouldnt be misinterpreted as "do this for me"....im not sure where the disconnect is with certain people. and the disdain for individuals asking for help is completely palpable
Im at a point of frustration where I actually do want people to do it for me. Idk too much paperwork. Too many intake papers. Applying to stuff I might get rejected for makes me happy to have a case manager now.
@emily_rugburn @autistics Iโm afraid to ask people at work to explain instructions to me again for this very reason. Often, I quietly ask another manager what needs doing and they tell me but sometimes the first time I get a task to do over the radio, it just doesnโt sink in. ๐ข
My mum really likes the word "just." "If you can't get ahold of them over the phone, -just- go talk to them in person." "Don't think about it, -just- do it."
Talking on the phone is something I've always sucked at, while I'm completely fluent when typing out text messages and do that on the reg.
Also, it's possible to manage sensory issues and the like; I used to have major issues with getting goopy stuff on my skin, so things like paint, glue, etc, for the longest time as a kid, for example, although I have since learned to manage that and it's not really an issue for me anymore, but that still takes a lot of time and effort to get to that point and sensory issues don't just go away even if they're successfully managed; they still exist.
@DFX4509B (Joshua Mason) Yeah, my biggest problem is that my mouth doesn't have a backspace key. I can draft and re-draft written correspondence before hitting send, but when I say a thing, it's just out there.
Also, I sometimes need multiple passes over a sentence to process what someone has said (or written). People get upset when I ask them to repeat certain things more than once. When it's written, I just move my eyes back to the beginning of the sentence as many times as necessary and nobody's any the wiser (except for me, I guess).
Also, it feels kinda nice to be able to open up here or on Mastodon, while if I tried opening up similarly on Facebook or Twitter, or sadly even Bsky to some extent for that matter, I'd probably get ostracized for it.
Although I'm more of a visual type when it comes to expression anyways, as in I like to draw or paint a lot and consider myself pretty good at it.
A good boss should reduce or remove barriers that impede their subordinates from doing their job effectively. Shockingly few can actually accomplish this.
I thought a touchscreen keyboard was the worst possible input device, but they're way more hateful when you only have one working eye. My depth perception has never been great, but...
Welp, the power is back on in our unit, but apparently not in the whole building. The entry buzzer is still out, the fire doors still won't stay open and the alarm on the fire panel has been beeping all day because it's still running on battery.
@Thuna What's funny is I just looked at the documentation for string-join, and it even includes other functionality that I had implemented myself. It allowed me to delete an entire other function.
I mean, there's no reason to feel dirty calling `eval`. Writing code which generates and then evals new code is a long established and honourable #Lisp pattern. But equally, you don't need `eval` here.
One thing I miss in #Lisp coming from #Haskell is the ability to search for functions by their type signature. I hadn't realized how much I relied upon this ability until I lost it.
lispworks.com/documentation/Hyโฆ maybe that could help you. #Lisp is interactive which means you are more likely to explore you program and your problem than thinking upfront to much about it. Sound quite strange at first but if you like always shift the view lisp is more like you get to what you want to do first and build stuff around it on the go. So its problem first
@Bjรถrn Gohla No, I mean that I can do that in Haskell, but not Lisp. Lisp doesn't really have type signatures, so such a feature wouldn't really make sense.
If you use generic functions (via `defgeneric` or `defmethod`) the resulting methods specialize on classes (and other things, but it isn't the same as all types). The slime inspector will show you all the method signatures for different methods, and you could no doubt write tools though I don't know if the method type signatures are available via standard API (it might be, I just haven't tried).
As a Schemer (and formerly/sometimes still Objective-C), everything is pretty verbose, and my own functions even more so, so I can search by function name knowing the type and parameters. (vector-index vec searchfunc), (draw-rect-with-edge-color rect edge-width color), etc.
There's no excuse for hardcore Lisp functions like (wadsf w q) "wander down stack frames for word query" (fictional but not unlikely). #lisp
All interned symbols can be found in a lookup table. This table is bound to the obarray symbol.
Hang on a minute...
I can only assume that the underlying C code has its own pointer to this table and the obarray symbol is only provided as a convenience for elisp functions that can't see this pointer? #emacs #lisp
No no, the obarray you see from elisp is the same one used by the reader. Elisp is an old-style Lisp here, and the obarray is a first-class thing: you can make a new one, rebind obarray, etc.
That's the sort of thing people don't do much anymore, but used to do. The documentation covers it reasonably well gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/โฆ
I'm starting to get the impression that my doctor's office is trying to drum up business by giving me repeated heart attacks with vague voicemails about some test results I'm waiting on.
For the record, according to the information I have at this very moment, everything is (probably) fine.
That's awesome. I need to hear my own advice, of course, but don't be inhibited to share something that isn't finished. It's the Fediverse! We're all anarchists! The kind sort, I mean.
I'm finally MOOing from #Emacs. I've still got a bunch of work to do to port my customizations over from my old client, but it's Emacs... I'm sure it can do that. #LambdaMOO #moo #mud
Those? Those are disco lights โฆ & this is the heavy metal bash tree. * reaches in through the branches & ornaments* Tang Tang Tang. Proper steel under that green paint.
@screwlisp @Judy Anderson I've been looking to migrate more of my workflow into emacs, in this particular case I'm looking to moo via emacs which I believe you both do?
I believe @screwlisp has mentioned using rmoo, but the only repo I found for that hasn't been updated in over a decade. Is there something more recent I'm not aware of?
I can offer you the moo.el I use, it started out as something by Pavel and/or wRog and was recently updated by KMP for Emacs 29. Randomly looking at some comments I see references to williams.edu making me think that JoeFeedback had a hand in it as well.
I kinda think the version of moo.el that I have will automatically add LambdaMOO when you load moo.el if you don't have a .moo_worlds. I think you only need that if you have more worlds. YMMV, but try pulling moo.el into emacs and searching for 8888 to see the logic that I think is probably doing this. (I didn't track back to see where 'file' is getting its value, but I assume it's .moo_worlds because I don't have a .moo_worlds and somehow LambdaMOO is pre-defined.)
Also, you can, if you prefer, use the mud-add-world function from your .emacs (possibly multiple times with different hosts) to avoid a .moo_worlds. Whether that file is a help or hindrance is a personal taste issue. This is what my .emacs says, right after loading moo.el. It adds MOOsaico, a multilingual MOO in Portugal that I helped program (3 decades ago):
if you want a very lazy solution, Comint mode allows TCP connections (and supports things like history and word navigation). Obviously no fancy features, but it beats telnet!
I can't remember the exact function, I think its "(make-comint 'moo '(ADDRESS . PORT))"
(1) MCP support if you care about that (matters more for JHCore, which enables MCP by default... I think an MCP implementation *does* exist at LambdaMOO)
(2) it is a very thin layer on top of comint.el (what all of the other terminal modes in Emacs use under the hood -- meaning if you're used to the shell and telnet modes, this works the same way and you get all of the various features without having to do any work + it's actively maintained as part of the core Emacs distribution)
@Roger Crewโ โโ๐ธโโโโ @Judy Anderson @screwlisp I've got this one working, though I had do a little finessing to get it to installed. Now I need to see if my elisp knowledge is sufficient to customize it in a manner similar to how I'd customized TF.
I'm currently in the process of adding my own custonizations. I've added a rudimebtary shim that processes lines entered bu the user so that it can support commands that get processed on the client side.
Here's an excerpt:
(require 'mud-mcp)
(defun lambdamoo ()
"Connect to LambdaMOO"
(interactive)
(mud-mcp-connect "LambdaMOO" "lambda.moo.mud.org" 8888)
(setq lambdamoo-send-line comint-input-sender
comint-input-sender #'lambdamoo-process-line))
(defconst lambdamoo-commands
'(("send" . lambdamoo-send)
("test" . lambdamoo-test))
"Command functions")
(defvar lambdamoo-send-line nil
"The function that is called to send a line to the server")
(defun lambdamoo-process-line (proc str)
"Process input sent by the user"
(if (string-prefix-p "/" str)
(lambdamoo-process-command proc str)
(funcall lambdamoo-send-line proc str)))
(defun lambdamoo-process-command (proc str)
"Process a command"
(let* ((words (split-string str))
(command (string-trim-left (car words) "/"))
(found (assoc (downcase command)
lambdamoo-commands
#'string=))
(func (and found (cdr found))))
(if func
(funcall func proc str)
(message "Command '%s' not found." command))))
After I wrote all this, I found comments in the file detailing how to add functionality.
Is there a more "proper" way I could've done this?
I've got to stop writing code on my phone. The combination of a touchscreen keyboard and tiny screen allows stupid typos to make their way into my code that I would be much more likely to catch on a proper computer.
However you choose to deal with the festivities, or don't, or can't, I wish you at least some joy and peace. We are on our way out of the dark and since long before memory or record, humans, it seems, have deemed this worthy of celebrating, at least in some way. But, this may be no more than remembering who you are and realising that the world around us, for all its horror and fear, is still a place of beauty and grace. That there is still kindness and joy and magnificence and the simplest things can show us the most.
So be yourself, enjoy, or not, yourself in the ways that you want to. Let go of shouldn't and what if and all the should be's that plague us. This is not just a time for others, it is your time too. A time to embrace the moment and what we can and we what we have, no matter how little that may seem to be, all the small things and all the great, the stars and the moon (even though we don't have the paperwork for those, and yes, that was a Pratchett reference.) the wind in our hair and everything in between. A time to dream, a time to shine.
itโs hard to knock a day your alive, so I will be grateful for kind people like you Kevinโฆ I hope the day brings us some joy, peace and love, even if we bring it to ourselves. ๐ซฃ
My brain hasn't fully recovered from busy yesterday, but it is working well enough that I can play computer games and I don't have to do much so that's all not a big problem ๐
I am dangerously close to unleashing my first #emacs package on the public. It's nothing fancy and still relatively niche, but I deem it potentially useful enough to be worth publishing.
There are a couple small features I want to add and a few things that still need some polish, but it's almost ready for a version 0.1 release.
It's not anything ground breaking or anything. I'm still pretty much an #elisp novice, but I'm proud of it anyway.
@รlvaro R. At this point all I need to add is a README and two features (which will mostly reuse code I've already written just in a slightly different way).
Surprisingly enough, the hardest part of the whole project was getting it to display numbers with thousands separators. That code might exist in the bowels of the calc package, but it was easier to just roll my own.
Okay, my first #Emacs package is officially released. It was strongly inspired by @Soroban Exam Website's work, providing practice tools for the #soroban. This is the first Emacs package I've ever released. It's probably not perfect, but I welcome feedback on how it can be improved.
I wonder if there is an overlap of more than say five people who are both soroban and emacs users. ๐
@Soroban Exam Website Might as well. I wrote it mainly for myself, partly because I don't own a printer and this makes it easier to practice when working from a computer screen, but also just to see if I could.
Still, if someone else is going to find it useful, that's probably the place I'll find them.
@Soroban Exam Website Yeah, that's what I'd been using. I just wanted sonething that worked offline. It's also got some tweaks that make it easier to see what line I'm on when doing additions since I can't slide my soroban over the page.
Katy's been down a YouTube rabbit hole on $medical_condition lately. Today we watched a yoga video that purported to relieve one of the symptoms. Cool cool, yoga can have benefits. Let's give it a go. Some of the instructions in this video were oddly specific but whatever, that's fine. Then we read the comments and my cult alarm started blaring.
This was a video with millions of views and an untold number of comments. Some of them were downright scary in their praise for this guy* and there wasn't a single remotely negative comment to be found.
Not one. I looked.
Someone is really dedicated to sliencing dissent on this video, and I can't imagine that being anything shy of a full-time job. That is probably one of the most massive red flags there is.
* e.g.: "Who needs western medicine? $youtuber is always the answer."
Maybe the best way to fight AI taking over our media, is to stop supporting the arts with clicks on ads and subscription fees?
Go see a new band. Watch a play. Visit a gallery and talk to an artist.
Maybe if we made it more about supporting artists, and less about cammodifying the arts for our convenience, we wonโt have to lose one of the things that makes humanity great?
Generative AI canโt play guitar in a live rock show. Generative AI canโt put paint on a canvas and hang it in your local gallery. It canโt act in a play. It canโt throw a pot on a wheel, or produce a sculpture from clay or stone. It canโt weave, It canโt dance a ballet, sing in an opera, or play the fiddle at your local Irish pub session.
The digital domain forces a change of model. Y BUT Y, that is: digital leftcopY BUT physical rightcopY. The digital domain is freely accessible, but commercial exploitation remains the prerogative of the author; in all other domains, all rights remain with the author or artist. Public Administration should then monitor the circulation of digital works and citizensโ preferences, and accordingly fund the artists who publish under a Y BUT Y license.
The US TikTok sale has been signed. The company will be controlled by a joint venture including Oracle, Silver Lake, Andreessen Horowitz, Abu Dhabi-based MGX. Adding a UAE company really makes it clear that this was never about national security concerns.
@conlan It was also bad when Congress passed this law. I opposed it quite loudly. They also happened to have handed Trump one more social media platform to control. Good job.
Apologies if this is answered somewhere obvious, but how does this work? Byte dance pushes code changes to the Americans and they just... take them? For free? How does the American version become Maga then? Or does American tiktok slowly turn into truth social as the codebases diverge?
Does that mean that TikTok is going to be split into two different networks? Or is TikTok US only responsible for the moderation and data storage of accounts that are considered US based?
It isn't smart to try to hire above average skilled people and then encourage them to communicate through any medium that munges what they wrote into what software guesses an average person would have been likely to write.
Going in for a medical procedure (probably nothing to be worried about) that's going to require me to start a clear liquid diet tomorrow morning. It's gonna suck, but at least 12 years as a Mormon taught me how to deal with being hungry for an extended period (because fasting). I made sure to eat well for my last meal tonight though.
One thing I like about running #Debian is that when some project adds something that people don't like, I get plenty of heads up before that version actually hits the official Debian repos. ๐
I'm really not happy with the situation either... ๐ Maybe a workaround would be looking at the code and find every single url/ip that FF is supposed to call and block them in a firewall... but that's both not very casual user friendly and time consuming because if it's efficient they would just have to regularly change subdomains or whatever to make things hard.
To be fair, I could paint this one quickly because I only painted the fox and the parrot over a scene that I had already painted for Reddit when they had their API change controversy back in June 2023. The artwork is hosted somewhere in this directory: peppercarrot.com/en/artworks/mโฆ
Official homepage of Pepper&Carrot, a free(libre) and open-source webcomic about Pepper, a young witch and her cat, Carrot. They live in a fantasy universe of potions, magic, and creatures.
Official homepage of Pepper&Carrot, a free(libre) and open-source webcomic about Pepper, a young witch and her cat, Carrot. They live in a fantasy universe of potions, magic, and creatures.
I'm not sure so far. ML has valid applications, and so far what Mozilla has brought to the table seems very reasonable to me. Most important thing for me is that everything is local and privacy friendly. And the features they have are very reasonable: An alt-text generation model makes a lot of sense for people to whom alt-texts matter. And local translation of websites also sounds like a really nice feature. As far as I see such features will make the web more accessible with better privacy.
For me the most important things are:
1. ML should be local and not send arbitrary data to shady third party services 2. ML should be build to only affect performance when you actually need it 3. ML should provide specific tools, not general purpose blackboxes
Also 4. ML should be trained in a responisble way, which means: 1. Responsible source of training data 2. Resource use of training should be justified by the benefit of the functionality
I remember the time when ML was mosty an exciting University thing, where results were shared, and not some big corporation BS. I am not against going back in that direction.
But you know, digiKam has been using public models for facial recognition and matching for years now. And I don't think anything bad came from it.
I am currently in the position of saying: Wait and see what mozilla does. And if it turns out the wrong way, there are forks. That's the beauty of open source.
@lazy Plenty of good ML research going on at Unis. LLMs and Stable Diffusion are just a microscopic slice of ML and there is a lot of cool stuff you can do with the part that do not require you to steal all intellectual property in the world.
@j_bertolotti @lazy I totally agree, and although I often take shortcuts for the sake of efficient communication, my position on LLMs is nuanced.
What worries me the most is that 'AI browsers' have a larger scope by definition. If Firefox wants to join that group, it would also mean getting a built-in assistant that can browse the web automatically, fill in forms and purchase items on the user's behalf.
I know users will be able to turn it off, but I see it as a source of security breach.
@FoxbrushTailwag Same here, and it makes it even more frustrating. I'm still using Firefox after a couple of months of using LibreWolf, which was educational because I could understand many of Firefox's privacy and options that LibreWolf activates by default.
@rl_dane @cybird hmmh, not sure about innocence. Maybe it's naiveness or it falls more into the category: Ignorance is bliss.๐คทโโ๏ธ
otoh it is already sawing the wrong side of the branch it's sitting on, which isn't a particular sly plan from the beginning... (and which is also an good observation on moz.com's track record).
Yeah, I guess "innocence" is more a descriptor of the empathic emotion it evokes (in terms of what is desired) than what is actually there.
But also, the extreme juxtaposition of the cute fuzzy "innocent"-looking animal with the horrendously clueless and villainous TESCREAL reality of what Mozilla has become. Ugh.
Firefox is shooting itself in the foot with this. Most Firefox users are users of the browser because of privacy reasons and to escape the big brother tech.
Implementing ai in the browser is repulsing idea. Nobody want that. I believe sooner than later people are going to avoid AI in the most parts.
@vismantas Just the new CEO at Mozilla communicating enthusiastically about AI in general on Mozilla's blog for Firefox (eg. "It will evolve into a modern AI browser") src: blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/leโฆ
They should have one of Zen browsers developers as Firefox CEO. Not a finance bro. Firefox should focus on only being a decent browser. They are a foundation, not a for profit corporation and need to act as so.
while the recursive name certainly helps, pizza developers use proprietary ingredients while mac and cheese development is fully free. The source code is in the name!
Although you could argue that Kraft Dinner is proprietary, but that's like a proprietary version of UNIX. People just go to it for nostalgia knowing it's way outdated, and any attempt to replicate it will give a better result.
I wish I could warm your whole tent !!! I have a stupid question. Do you find survival blankets in the Gaza strip ? I was wondering if this kind of tool could help a bit, and it is maybe less expensive than a real wool blanket?
I can't upload the image because of the poor internet connection, but I've never heard of a life blanket here before, my dear. But it's not a stupid question; rather, the oppressive rulers are the stupid ones who haven't been able to resolve our issue and provide us with shelter.๐๐
a survival blanket is like a huge peace of aluminium, one side is silver colour , the other side golden colour. When you want to protect yourself from the cold, I think you put the golden face outside, and when you want to protect you from the heat, you put the silver colour outside. But for sure, a real home should be what you should get before anything else.
No, no, we don't have anything like that in Gaza. If it existed, we would know about it and it would be sold everywhere, but I've never heard of it before.
A lot of folks have asked me if I'm serious about relaunching Mozilla after their inevitable collapse.
What I can say with confidence is that if the brand assets become available, I would absolutely look into purchasing them, in the same manner Perifractic "resurrected" Commodore. I am no millionaire, so this would have to be a community-driven thing.
Imagine: everyday people like us banding together to resurrect our beloved browser. I'd absolutely do my part to spearhead that.
That's the dream! Unfortunately, in the wake world, things are less than great. I'm wondering for a while if we are past the point of a hard-fork of firefox.
This is not a "you can't do it" message, but there will be challenges.
MDN is a massive effort. Maintaining Firefox and its core, or rebuilding it, is practically a state-level project requiring salaries, benefits, a legal department, and the need to attract people who can do the work.
Maybe "rebuild it" is the solution though. LadyBird is not a massive non-profit, and it's been very successful so far on its plan to make a new competing browser core.
That would be awesome and so needed. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks we need an independent organisational hard fork. But picking up the pieces and putting it in the hands of the community could work as well.
I'm still of the opinion that we need an organisational fork of Mozilla, preferably not domiciled in the US.
We have technical forks like librewolf, that's not what I'm asking for. I'm asking for new stewards of the upstream code. Although perhaps if the forks want to consider how they'd become a hard fork, with an organisational structure that would work too.
Mozilla is a product of it's surroundings. It's surroundings was silicon valley and well ๐คทโโ๏ธ
I'm super jaded about getting change for good. As an American, seeing our democracy being teared away and the administration having laws benefit companies, I feel very hopeless about positive change
a cooperative is fine, but the members/owners should be the maintainers, not us users. I don't want to be involved in voting a board/steering the org structure.
I want to pay for Firefox for its features.
I want that Firefox / Mozilla start a business model to motivate the majority of users to pay for development. I want to vote for features/dev priorities.
Stop #enshittification Stop the ad/search engine based revenue dependency. Start making the value Mozilla provides to its users visible.
What do they own that we need? Am I missing something? Not trolling here.
WebKit and Gecko are open source (more or less, Iโm not up to date on MPL). Thereโs currently a fair number of browsers based on them, but the non corporate efforts are spread out.
A non-profit organization with the intent to fund free/open/private WebKit/gecko (fork if forced) as well as an official cross platform UI that works with both engines could be created.
I think that would be the tipping point for me to actually put money into something.
Obviously YMMV, and I canโt tell if Iโm in a minority here or if many others would be interested.
Would you consider a stream to talk about it with chat?
At least to me the brand is not really relevant there. We, as a community, could theoretically always make a forge from Firefox under a different way. However since web standards are insanely complex, that would the the actual problem.
Reading this whole thread, I see people mentioning bringing back Netscape Navigator. I wonder if anyone remembers the original Mozilla browser that replaced NN when it went away, right before the browser part was splintered off. SeaMonkey is the continuation of that. A wave of community support for that project would be nice to see. I do miss that whole suite of apps.
soโฆI see a flaw in the plan. โInevitable Collapseโโฆare we talking geologic time? Because it has been on deathโs door for around a decade at least and hasnโt managed to fall into the grave yet. Here are the likelier outcomes: 1: Does the zombie thing like Radio Shack for another decade. 2: Gets propped up as โcompetitionโ for a larger company facing fines/lawsuit. 3: Gets bought by some AI company looking for a plug/play use case. 4: Bought and retired by a larger company.
Wozilla. like wario but instead of being obssessed with money, gold, castle and minigame, run a decent browser. Debian used to have a IceWeasel branding for firefox, I'm curious what happened to it
The only real asset (other than the user accounts, of course) the brand has is the code, and all the important code is already available.
For the people who want to see a return of "Netscape", the assets were sold to Sun (now owned by Oracle) and AOL (now owned by Yahoo, now owned by private equity), so good luck with that.
My advice to you would be to get involved with one of the many forks of the Firefox code.
Going in for a medical procedure (probably nothing to be worried about) that's going to require me to start a clear liquid diet tomorrow morning. It's gonna suck, but at least 12 years as a Mormon taught me how to deal with being hungry for an extended period (because fasting). I made sure to eat well for my last meal tonight though.
So the procedire in question is a colonoscopy. In addition to the diet they've also prescribed laxatives. I just took the first dose a short while ago. Apparently these things work fast.
Another #elisp question: Why does #Emacs have separate bits for the meta key (2**27) and alt (2**22)? Aren't they the same key, or is it a remapping thing like the ESC prefix?
@donaldh Yeah, I get that, but when emacs says I need to use the meta key, it's actually alt that I use. I'm guessing this is a remapping because most modern keyboards don't actually have an alt key, in much the same way you can use escape if you don't have an alt key?
not sure but IIRC the lisp machine keyboard distinguishes various special keys like ALT, META, HYPER etc. So on a modern machine they aren't distinguished, but in an alternate computing history we would have these modifiers on our keyboard and could map them differently.
Meta and ALT are not the same key. The original keyboards used long ago had Ctrl, Super, Hyper, Meta, and ALT keys. We now map Meta (i.e. ESC) to the Alt key on our keyboards as a convenience. I do not believe there is a way, on modern keyboards, to have both META and ALT mapped to a key. We can have Super, and Meta. I can't recall if I was able to map Hyper on a modern keyboard.
If you want a rigorous analysis of why statistical #AI models collapse when continuously trained on their own data without external supervision and constraints, read this amazing paper from last year.
If you want to get a visual intuition of how model collapse looks like, look at this video.
When AI stares at its own reflection for too long, and its inference is purely rooted on statistics rather than reasoning, this becomes statistically inevitable.
Keep this in mind whenever you hear someone talking about โAI models learning from their own outputsโ without addressing the statistical parrot issue.
ย Analysis shows that indiscriminately training generative artificial intelligence on real and generated content, usually done by scraping data fromย the Internet, can lead to a collapse in the ability of the models to generate diverse high-quality outโฆ
Have a great one too! Thanks for the gifts this year of advise, support and community you give so well! 
Kevin Davy
in reply to Jonathan Lamothe • • •Sensitive content